What could I expect from just putting rings on?

bignastyGS · #1 12-11-2010, 09:54 AM

After blowing up the 14 hp motor on my 1200,I took one of the 12 hp's we had from a parted 1250 and installed it into my tractor. I know that this motor was used well by the PO and nothing more. It was free and seemed to be in decent condition. After installing it,it smoked alot when it started up. It had a stuck valve but we had it running before we parted the tractor last spring. I believe the stuck valve was just as of late. When I took the head off to see if there was more trouble I seen the gunk and so forth that was accumulated on the piston and valves etc. After a thorough cleaning,I reinstalled the head with new gasket. I also looked at the cylinder bore and it showed no apparent trouble spots. I tried to wiggle the piston and it seemed like it had minimal slop. The top of the piston had no apparent detonation trouble like the on in the 14 hp did. Since I know nothing about the motor,I was thinking of maybe just purchasing a new set of rings to install to see if I can get the smoking to stop.I have already added marvel mystery oil in the crankcase and put some seafoam in the gas to see if that helps. The smoking has cleared about 1/2 already,since I had used it last week to plow snow in the driveway. It seems the more I use it,it does it even less. I was looking for if it doesn't completely stop,if adding the rings would help at all? A couple more points I need to bring up is,this motor had a vibration at first start but now is smooth,the clacking or knocking noise has been eliminated too,form what I have no idea. The oil is clear as a bell and is staying up to level,which leads me to believe it's not consuming alot of oil. It is not gas and blows blue,but when you smell it,it's definitely oil smoke.The motor idles so sweet too. When I had the 14 hp on it,it shook at idle.With the 12 hp on,it has none of the shaking or vibrations at all.This motor has good compression and plenty of power. At this time,the tractor is a dedicated snow plower and I will use the LT1042 as my mower,I just want this one to play with in the snow and perhaps pull a rear plow. I would appreciate any opinions as to what I could expect if I would do a ring swap alone. Since I am 3/4 way done with my JD H and have to finish the out building on the back of my garage for tractor and pellet storage,I don't have the extra $$$ to overhaul this motor. I would rather get a 16 hp motor and do that over before spending the money on this 12 hp.So,what are the opinions??You wont hurt my feelings if they are negative.

TEET · #2 12-11-2010, 11:33 AM

Pat, This could obviously go either way for you..I learned from experience it can too. Back when I was young(er) and foolish...well..more foolish, I did a re-ring job on a couple Kohler's for wheel horse's I owned. They exhibited the same symptoms you describe in your K301. I looked over the cylinders real good, they looked good with no major "visible" wear...same with the pistons. I re-placed the rings and used them both for probably 6 months when they let go on me..snapped rods in both of them. I noticed that the smoking slowed down quite a bit after doing the rings, but having only new rings and everything else internally was 40 years old and still worn..well...the "new" weakest link let go..being the rod(s).

When I got my first cub some years back, I decided to do it right, buy the manuals, and some of the proper tools needed to do a rebuild correctly (ring compressor, bore gauge, valve spring compressor, pullers, cylinder hone, lapping tools, etc). The tool that I actually think saved my butt the most now when rebuilding, is my bore gauge, because it lets you take accurate measurements on all sides of the cylinder from top to bottom...and these cylinders don't wear uniformly, but "oblong", meaning the front and back side of the cylinder walls wear more than the sides....just the nature of the engine design. Previously when I re-ringed them, I would just measure the rings, or the top of the bore which always seemed to look pretty good, but the wear was worse below this point unbeknown-st to me. I was more recently able to determine several times that my blocks needed to be bored .010. by measuring correctly with the bore gauge.....These aluminum rods fatigue over time also, and like I found out before, the next thing to go will be the weakest link.

to make a short story long... I would think that just re-ringing might bite you in the end, and you'll have to open it back up and do it right sooner than later. Its tough because with no budget, you end up with more problems if you try to cut corners...ask me how I know..lol I have the tranny from my 682 sitting here apart because I don't have the extra cash for the few seals that it needs....ugh

This was just discussed in another thread, but in my area I can get my cylinder bored for $35-50...then all the (oem Kohler) parts for me to rebuild are usually around the $200 mark

Good luck!!

Jeff (teet)

ol'George · #3 12-11-2010, 04:26 PM

If it were mine and using it only occasionally, I would use it a while and see how it transpires.
You state it is just an interim solution as you want to go to another motor in the future. Why not use it as is, unless it is really bad and needs immediate attention. A puff of oil from a motor won’t hurt anything. Now if it is fouling plugs that is a different situation. I can’t recall all the oil burners I’ve had over these past 50+ years that performed well except for a little oil consumption or a puff of smoke @ start up.
One in particular is a J.D 210—10 Hp Kohler that puffs oil @ start up.
It has been doing that for 9 years I've owned it --1800 hours ago. The throttle butterfly shaft is so worn it is ridiculously sloppy, and I had to reattach the butterfly to it. But it still runs great. Yes it is a little noisy too as the piston is worn badly but it is like the energizer bunny as far as the Kohler’s operational dependability.
Just my $.02 cents worth.

cubs-n-bxrs · #4 12-11-2010, 06:07 PM

Pat I can say there is a huge risk in just re-ringing a motor and it depends what chance you are willing to take. I have always lived on the edge of insanity so doing what I did was a no brainer. 25yrs ago when I first got my 125 it had a burned up wiring harness and it smoked like a diesel. Back in them days I was so broke I could barely pay attention so I had to fix the 125 the cheapest means possible. I patched the wire harness back together. Pulled the valves out cleaned the stems and lapped the valves back in. This next statement will most likely have some people shaking their heads. Went to the auto store and purchased a set of .010 over rings and filed the end gap back to .005. The rod was still in tolerance so it was left alone. Put the motor back together with a new gasket set. Fast forward 24yrs the motor was retired and is next in line for a proper rebuild. You have to do what the wallet will allow you to do. Good luck Kelly

metalrain · #5 12-11-2010, 07:27 PM

I just did this on my 1450...It was smoking more than i cared, but because its kind of my backup machine and won't see alot of use, i pulled the head, cleaned everything up. The piston was chewed up next to the valves, so i installed a new piston and rings...the cylinder wall was nice, so i honed it and installed the new parts (aftermarket not OEM). It has more power than it did before, no smoking, and runs excellent. I've used it the past six months more than i thought i would just because it runs so well. Maybe i got lucky, who knows? but i do have an extra 14 horse i plan to completely go thru this winter. I agree with George...alittle smoke never hurt anything, you have good compression and power....run it the way it is, or if the smoke bothers you...try the new rings.
Good luck

metalrain

BCDSFCRET · #6 12-11-2010, 07:36 PM

Just remember oil is cheep! A puff of smoke is nothing.

ol'George · #7 12-11-2010, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cubs-n-bxrs

Pat I can say there is a huge risk in just re-ringing a motor and it depends what chance you are willing to take. I have always lived on the edge of insanity so doing what I did was a no brainer. 25yrs ago when I first got my 125 it had a burned up wiring harness and it smoked like a diesel. Back in them days I was so broke I could barely pay attention so I had to fix the 125 the cheapest means possible. I patched the wire harness back together. Pulled the valves out cleaned the stems and lapped the valves back in. This next statement will most likely have some people shaking their heads. Went to the auto store and purchased a set of .010 over rings and filed the end gap back to .005. The rod was still in tolerance so it was left alone. Put the motor back together with a new gasket set. Fast forward 24yrs the motor was retired and is next in line for a proper rebuild. You have to do what the wallet will allow you to do. Good luck Kelly

You have done nothing new with filing rings for a custom fit, it's been going on since the model "T" days.
A piston can run up to maybe .006-.008 clearence in the wall and function just fine with a custom filed set of rings, it just takes a little time and patients, to get the proper end clearance @ the BOTTOM of the bore.
Back in the day, alot of us fellers had a lot more time than money and made things work and work well.
Sure the engine will be a little noisy cold, but most people would never know the differance.

cubs-n-bxrs · #8 12-12-2010, 11:34 AM

ol'George I never claimed that I was doing anything new with filing the end gap on the rings. Just pointing out that there is other options as opposed to a full motor rebuild when the wallet says no.

ol'George · #9 12-12-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cubs-n-bxrs

ol'George I never claimed that I was doing anything new with filing the end gap on the rings. Just pointing out that there is other options as opposed to a full motor rebuild when the wallet says no.

Sorry if it came across that way, not intended! guys with a different way of skinning a cat is what made this world great! I'm sure there are fellers that hesitate to post their way of doing things for fear of seeming primitive or different.
I myself @ times have kept silent because I walk to a different tune.
Everybody has an idea and darn if I don't say many times, why didn’t I think of that.
Dad went through WW I the depression and WWII.
The stories of poverty & innovation he told were staggering.
Like putting a tire inside of another because you couldn't buy them during the war. Or filing the rod caps because money wasn't there during the depression to buy bearings or having them re babbited, Even going so far as removing a rod when the bearing was gone on the crank, letting the other cylinders keep you going.
I hope we never have it that bad in this country again.

1512Diesel · #10 12-12-2010, 03:26 PM

I did this on a 1650 (new rings only), and it worked out great. One thing you must do is run a hone through the bore! It allows the new rings to seat. If they don't seat, it'll blow oil worse than before. I actually left the crank in the block, but removed the rod, and piston. I cut a circle out of aluminum the same size as the bore, and rtv'd it at the bottom. This allowed me to run the hone w/fluid, and keep it out of the crankcase. Cleaned the bore really well, and put it all back together. When you first run the hone through it will show you how bad the bore is out of round. Its a gamble..... if you can't clean up all of the area that the rings travel in, then it needs to be bored.

I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it was fast, and relatively cheap, and it worked.

Oh, and make sure to plug that little hole that goes to the lifter galley :biggrin2.gif: