1650 rehab thread

[ol'George]

So glad you have it all figgered out,
so you don't need additional help from a old man like me.
Have fun!

[The Dark Side of Will]

Originally Posted by ol'George

These old engines sure as hell don't need EFI.
We would still be using carbs, except the epa rules ran them out of town.

Ehh... We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Take ANY EFI car with an O2 sensor. Drive it 250,000 miles under any driving conditions, as long as you change the oil and keep up with maintenance. You will be able to tear the engine down without a ridge reamer.

Even before EFI, Rochester fuel injection--based on the same venturi principal-- kicked a carbs' tail for driveability AND power. European manufacturers were going for EFI before the EPA & EU made them. Cadillac had analog EFI in the late '60's 472's.

[J-Mech]

Well well.... (cracking knuckles). This will be fun.....
You're an engineer aren't you.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Sooo... there's a bunch of baggage on both sides of this.

This made no sense.... not to me anyway.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

I've heard plenty of things like the above from the classic hot rodding crowd. They usually tell me I should rip that electronic stuff off and use a carb because I can fix it with a screw driver.

You should listen to those guys..... they aren't that wrong.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

I prefer fuel injection that doesn't break in the first place.

Oh.... that one really makes me laugh!!
I've been a mechanic for 20 years. Fuel injection breaks. I've fixed far more issues with fuel injection than carburetors. Most carbs, if used regularly need rebuilt once every 15 or 20 years, or maybe....maybe once in 150,000 miles. I've never seen a fuel injected car go that long without a failed injector, or MAP sensor, or TPS, or IAC, or MAF, or O2..... list goes on and on. Oh, they break.... at no less a rate than something with a carb. Now, HEI is far better than points, there is no doubt about that at all. But a carburetor is pretty durable.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

I've built enough space flight hardware to know that electronics are far more reliable than mechanical devices (well... as long as current and heat limitations are met). That doesn't mean that the Transdenser is a great product, as a worthy electronics engineer is unlikely to be moonlighting making ignition relays for 40 year old lawn tractors.

Well... this isn't a goddamn rocket. It's a lawn mower. And the electronics they put on the space shuttle aren't the same quality as the ones on your car, I assure you.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Or maybe it could be a great product that was used outside of specification.

I don't see how something made specifically for what it is sold for can be used outside of it's "specification". I believe Kirk had these built. Interestingly enough, just a little while back, we were discussing the Kirk "point saver" and someone on here shared an email from Kirk himself, stating that the point saver wasn't really that great of a product, but in fact just made it easy for people who were barely able to find a screwdriver, to be able to time an engine. (I don't recall how he actually worded it, but the point is he knows he is selling something that does nothing.)

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Even in the fuel injection world (especially in the classic BMW community) I've run across plenty of people who have a problem and throw parts at it until it goes away. Then they blame the last part they threw at it instead of their terrible diagnostic skills.

More on this in a moment....

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Can anybody link examples of failures in a Transdenser module?

I'll hunt around. I remember helping diagnose bad ones, and ones that caused issues.... but finding the threads are another story.

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Do I need to clean the points? Sure. I did the factory mixture procedure and as I was about to test that, I noticed that the indicator light in the Transdenser was flickering. Since it's not supposed to do that, I checked things further. I can rotate the engine and the light will get bright, then dim and flickering. This doesn't mean there's a problem with it... just that the points are still passing enough current to light the LED when they're supposed to be open. That means I should clean and retime.

I think you better read an old book on how points work. Cleaning them makes them make good contact when the are CLOSED. When they are open.... they are open. If they can pass current when they are open, then you have short, or the points are bad. If the light if flickering, and the points are open.... you've got problems that cleaning won't fix. Now, if the points are just making contact.... then the light may indeed flicker. Or if they are dirty and closed... then the light may flicker. But if that POS blinky light is flickering when the points are open...... yeah. Maybe you did spend $40 for nothing.


What was it you were saying earlier? Something about people's bad diagnostic skills and not being able to figure out what's wrong with their engine.......

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

In the process of playing with it, I found the location at which the points open as indicated by the LED and a VERY healthy spark. I checked the timing window and, lo and behold, there was the single timing mark I mentioned earlier.

There are two sets of marks on the flywheel. Better make sure that mark has an "S" near it and not a "T".

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Cliff's Notes: Next up: cleaning the points.

This should be interesting......

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by The Dark Side of Will

Ehh... We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Take ANY EFI car with an O2 sensor. Drive it 250,000 miles under any driving conditions, as long as you change the oil and keep up with maintenance. You will be able to tear the engine down without a ridge reamer.

Even before EFI, Rochester fuel injection--based on the same venturi principal-- kicked a carbs' tail for driveability AND power. European manufacturers were going for EFI before the EPA & EU made them. Cadillac had analog EFI in the late '60's 472's.

Where do you get your info? Internet?

I've rebuilt a few hundred engines. Gas, diesel, fuel injected, carbureted, new, old... really, really old, really new, mechanical diesel injected, electronic injected.... all of them. You are FOS. I've torn down fuel injected motors with 125,000 miles on them and had to beat the rings past the ridge... and broke the piston lands doing it. The way the fuel gets into an engine does not affect upper cylinder wear. How many engines have you rebuilt? 3? 4? You're killing me.