1250 Found A New Home - Page 7

jsoluna · #61 09-12-2016, 07:19 PM

I do find it strange that it isn't a grease bolt from the factory. There is a constant motion and vibration there and it's just metal on metal.

jsoluna · #62 09-12-2016, 08:38 PM

Yeah I find joy in what several of my friends would call either "boring", or "work." Feels like play time to me....

Back to the 44a: this is gonna be fun.

jsoluna · #63 09-13-2016, 10:12 PM

Bouncing between project areas during the week as I don't have much time. Pulled the points pushrod and mic'd it out. Almost a perfect 1.550 inches. This most likely means the the cam is worn. The rod is the full steel part, no aluminum. I've lost probably a good .05 -.08 at least judging on where the points really should be sitting.

Options now are:

1. make a longer pushrod and hope the wear does not accelerate
2. tear down engine, remove cam, replace rod with upgraded one and/or replace cam (don't like this option. Not until I get a better feel for what the tractor's overall working condition is)
3. Go with electronic ignition. Do away with the points entirely, cap off the hole (I like this for simplicity)

Anyone here with experience in this area? What is the most attractive option in your opinion?

J-Mech · #64 09-13-2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsoluna

Bouncing between project areas during the week as I don't have much time. Pulled the points pushrod and mic'd it out. Almost a perfect 1.550 inches. This most likely means the the cam is worn. The rod is the full steel part, no aluminum. I've lost probably a good .05 -.08 at least judging on where the points really should be sitting.

Options now are:

1. make a longer pushrod and hope the wear does not accelerate
2. tear down engine, remove cam, replace rod with upgraded one and/or replace cam (don't like this option. Not until I get a better feel for what the tractor's overall working condition is)
3. Go with electronic ignition. Do away with the points entirely, cap off the hole (I like this for simplicity)

Anyone here with experience in this area? What is the most attractive option in your opinion?

Whoa there cowboy. I hadn't read this thread. Why can't you adjust your points? I find it really hard to believe that the cam would be worn out... because I've never seen it. Pushrod, yeah.... but that cam is flame hardened. No way it's wore out enough you can't time it. Lets see a pic of your points. Either your doing something wrong, or there is a something your overlooking.

Yes, I have some experience in "this area". You don't want electronic ignition. At the very worst, you need a new point pushrod..... at the worst. I'm wondering if it has the wrong set of points in it......

jsoluna · #65 09-13-2016, 11:03 PM

Yeah I forgot to mention that I ordered a new Kohler points set before pulling the trigger on another solution. I can get pics of the points setup now, but basically I have run out of adjustment. The largest gap I can get the points to achieve is right where it sits now, at
.016. The reason for this is still in question. Like I said, i mic'd the pushrod and it came out to almost a perfect 1.550 inches so it is pointless (pun!) to replace it.

The screw is maxed out in the direction that causes the ignition to be more advanced/increase gap. But according to the research I've been doing, cam wear is not a unheard of scenario. With my timing mark in the window on compression stroke, my points should be breaking open the circuit earlier, but I can't move the adjustment out any further than it already is. It's a very simple setup, not sure how I'd have anything wrong with my methods, but I'm sure you have more experience than I do.

Why are you opposed to electronic ignition?

J-Mech · #66 09-13-2016, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsoluna

Yeah I forgot to mention that I ordered a new Kohler points set before pulling the trigger on another solution. I can get pics of the points setup now, but basically I have run out of adjustment. The largest gap I can get the points to achieve is right where it sits now, at
.016. The reason for this is still in question. The screw is maxed out in the direction that causes the ignition to be more advanced/larger gap. But according to the research I've been doing, cam wear is not a unheard of scenario.

So, are you trying to set the time? Or adjust the gap? Only one way is correct.

Did you check the flywheel to be sure that the key didn't shear? Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

No, cam wear isn't unheard of, but for the most part it's got to be ridiculously bad for it to affect being able to time the engine.

I want to see a pic of the points... and not from 3 feet away. As close as you can get, with the open as far as they will open. I don't care where the engine is resting, just so long as they are open all the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsoluna

Why are you opposed to electronic ignition?

Because they are junk, and expensive compared to an $11 set of points that you replace once in 20 years. Points are mostly fail safe on a Kohler. Nearly never wear out unless you leave the key on and they are closed.... that will burn them up.

jsoluna · #67 09-13-2016, 11:30 PM

I was trying to time it statically.

When I attempted that, I was unable to do so because I could not get enough of an advance out of the points set screw. It's maxed out in one direction, the direction I needed it to move more in.

I was talking about points gap because timing and gap are related. I understand that they are two different things. The .020 gap only gets you close, it's not putting the engine in time.

Larger gap = advance timing
Smaller gap = retard timing

(Just trying to illustrate that I do actually understand the theory and mechanics of the system)

I have not checked for sheared key. That is a good call.

I'll get pics of the current points set to illustrate the issue. Hopefully there's just an oddball points set that's on there. There isn't a Kohler marking on them anywhere.

jsoluna · #68 09-13-2016, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

Because they are junk.

I agree that the points system is simple and reliable. But an electronic system is just as simple and reliable and requires no fiddling or maintenance.

I actually enjoy relying on the battery/points ignition. I like that it is mechanical. I fail to see how electronic alternatives are junk, however. It's proven technology that's been available for half a century.

J-Mech · #69 09-14-2016, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsoluna

I agree that the points system is simple and reliable. But an electronic system is just as simple and reliable and requires no fiddling or maintenance.

I actually enjoy relying on the battery/points ignition. I like that it is mechanical. I fail to see how electronic alternatives are junk, however. It's proven technology that's been available for half a century.

No, it isn't as reliable.

This is the part I hate about a forum, so be patient with me...
I do not need explained to the benefit of an electronic ignition system, or it's reliability. I've turned wrenches for nearly 20 years, almost 15 of which was in my own shop with my own set of mechanics working for me. I'm very aware of the systems, how they work, and how long they last.

SIMPLE ANSWER: Companies don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars developing electronic ignition systems for old point ignition air cooled "lawn mower" engines.... so, what you get is a company that threw something together thinking they could make some small profits entering into the "lawn and garden" arena. Point is, the electronic ignition conversions for the old K series Kohlers are actually about as cheap as it can be built. Honestly, the same goes for the majority of the conversion systems for the old tractors and stationary engines. I've done so many of those conversions that I can't even count, but that was because the engines were so wore out, the point ignition couldn't be maintained without an engine overhaul.... timing gears shot, cams shot, distributors shot, mechanical advance shot..... too much play to get any kind of consistent spark. Slap a conversion in for $100 and get 5 more years out of a wore out motor. (Back to small engines.) Now you can buy an EFI Kohler motor. But that system was developed by the manufacturer, for that specific engine. It IS a reliable and good system. But not the conversions you find out there for the old ones. Those are just cheap junk.

I'm actually not interested in convincing you the point system in your Kohler is better. If you want electronic, be my guest. I'm interested in helping you fix what you have.

Get some pics and lets see what you have. Even if everything is right, and you have a steel pushrod, a quick "blip" with a mig welder will make the rod long enough to make it work. If you need a new pushrod, they are still available. I don't know where your reading that cam failure on the point lobe is common. I'm not saying it doesn't happen.... I'm saying it's not "common". I do hate "internet information"... most of it is from someone who saw something one time, and now thinks they are an "expert". Going through 5 or 10 engines doesn't make you an expert anything. Throw a few hundred engine rebuilds under your belt and then we can debate.

jsoluna · #70 09-14-2016, 06:50 AM

I agree with you - the internet is laden with misinformation. I like to do research before I ask questions on forums though, and a lot of what I was seeing were talks of cam failure. I dont like to be the guy who asks basic questions that could be determined elsewhere. I like to self educate, and only ask for guidance when necessary. Whether or not cam failure is common, who knows. The rebuilders with as you said, 100+ K Series rebuilds under their belt. I don't personally know any. That's why I am here - to learn and to share. So in your experience, cam failure is not common. Got it.

I do have a 10+ years experience with automotive and machine repair, as well as a thorough understanding of electronics and troubleshooting. The conclusions I came to were preliminary, and maybe I should have stated that. Its not like I was gonna tear out the engine and pull the pan off just to check the cam gear before I put on the new Kohler points, nor would I spend time and money on retrofitting an electronic ignition before being absolutely certain I needed to. Ill make sure to be more specific in the future.

We can leave electronic ignition vs points ignition out of the talk for now. I was interested in hearing why they are junk, or cheap - like specific incidences or scenarios that you've seen, but if that's not a topic that seems worthy of addressing I will leave it open to anyone else who might have an opinion.

I'll get some pics with points fully open.