To till, or not to till, that is the question

j4c11 · #1 02-03-2016, 03:47 PM

I am noticing a no till current starting to circulate on the internet, more and more people are recommending a no till approach to gardening. Growing up we always plowed/tilled the soil, it just seems counter-intuitive that not
turning the soil would produce just as good results. And yet, university studies on corn have shown that no till produces yields at least as good, if not better.I know a lot of you live in agricultural areas and are seeing this unfold first-hand, what is your take on this as it relates to gardening? Should we take our Brinly plows to the scrap heap?

R Bedell · #2 02-03-2016, 03:50 PM

The farmers in my area have been implementing "no till" farming for a number of years now. I believe, it is a "cost saving" plan to reduce farming cost more so, than a production benefit.

So, are you going to save $10 by not tilling your garden...???

j4c11 · #3 02-03-2016, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Bedell

The farmers in my area have been implementing "no till" farming for a number of years now. I believe, it is a "cost saving" plan to reduce farming cost more so, than a production benefit.

So, are you going to save $10 by not tilling your garden...???

Well but if tilling is of little or no benefit over not tilling why do it in the first place?

R Bedell · #4 02-03-2016, 04:21 PM

You can do as you please. You asked for an explanation & I supplied one.

J-Mech · #5 02-03-2016, 04:41 PM

I've farmed my whole life. No-Till is nothing new. I'll try to keep this short, as I have first hand experience with both conventional till, and no-till. My family progressed with farming like everyone did in the late 70's and early 80's when chemical started to come into play. We eventually went no-till and to say the least, it didn't work for us. Partly because granddad didn't know or understand how to do it. We eventually went the polar and complete opposite, going to 100% organic farming. No chemical whatsoever..... so we basically went back to farming like they did 50 years ago. We never did raise the bushels per acre that the chemical farmers did. Now, moving ahead a few years, I worked for a farmer that was 100% no-till. He was completely successful at it, raising some of the best crops I had seen. So, yes it can be done. Now I help some of my cousins farm. They run right down the middle. We no-till the beans, and till all the corn ground, so the soil gets worked every other year. My granddad actually did studies on his farm with the U of I (University of Illinois) AG department on different tillage types and the results. So.... yeah... I've seen a lot of different methods. My opinion, and that is all it is, because everyone has different results. See, there are too many factors to be able to establish a "rule". Soil type, size of equipment, rain (weather), seed brand/type/(and like 5 factors within each of those), seed spacing, plants per acre, all play a part in the successfulness of the crop. My opinion is: Tillage plays an important role. I have seen first hand in the same field, side by side crops all of the same seed, just different tillage methods applies, and the crops look darker green, and just all around more hearty than the ones that didn't get as much tillage. Then, as far as chemical usage, I believe it has it's place as well. So does cultivating crops (tillage post-emergence). This is a debate that will never end because farming depends on so much more than it looks like from the outside.

In a garden:
Unless you plan on using Round-Up ready sweetcorn in your garden, your going to need to till. If you decide to go no-till in the garden, your going to need a lot of mulch or something similar to control weeds. After all I've done and seen, I will plow my garden every year. In the spring or in the fall really doesn't seem to matter. Then I will till and plant. This leaves the soil soft so my cultivator will go in. I have too big of a garden to be able to weed by hand (hoe). If you have a small garden, can mulch or cover the soil, then it may work for you. The neat thing is, it's trial and error. It may work for you. It may not. I'm convinced about what I've seen, and I'll keep my plow, tiller, and cultivators.

Read these for some reference. I shared some stuff you may find interesting in the second link.

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=39111

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=32529

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=33055

J-Mech · #6 02-03-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Bedell

The farmers in my area have been implementing "no till" farming for a number of years now. I believe, it is a "cost saving" plan to reduce farming cost more so, than a production benefit.

There is no cost savings. You spend less dollars in fuel, but more in chemical. Chemical is actually a little more expensive than the fuel...... or it used to be when fuel was as under $1.35.

Just for reference, anyone want to guess how much the average bag of seed corn costs? This is just 1 bag, 50lbs. Farmers, please don't list the answer right off....... you'll take the fun out of it.

j4c11 · #7 02-03-2016, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Bedell

You can do as you please. You asked for an explanation & I supplied one.

I didn't mean that as a snarky comment, sure we can all do as we please and that's the end of about any conversation, I meant it as a legitimate question: is plowing and tilling still relevant for the small time gardener in the context of large farms going no till and studies showing no decrease in yields/productivity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

My opinion is: Tillage plays an important role. I have seen first hand in the same field, side by side crops all of the same seed, just different tillage methods applies, and the crops look darker green, and just all around more hearty than the ones that didn't get as much tillage. Then, as far as chemical usage, I believe it has it's place as well. So does cultivating crops (tillage post-emergence). This is a debate that will never end because farming depends on so much more than it looks like from the outside.

In a garden:
Unless you plan on using Round-Up ready sweetcorn in your garden, your going to need to till. If you decide to go no-till in the garden, your going to need a lot of mulch or something similar to control weeds. After all I've done and seen, I will plow my garden every year. In the spring or in the fall really doesn't seem to matter. Then I will till and plant. This leaves the soil soft so my cultivator will go in. I have too big of a garden to be able to weed by hand (hoe). If you have a small garden, can mulch or cover the soil, then it may work for you. The neat thing is, it's trial and error. It may work for you. It may not. I'm convinced about what I've seen, and I'll keep my plow, tiller, and cultivators.

Great information, thanks Jonathan

j4c11 · #8 02-03-2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

Just for reference, anyone want to guess how much the average bag of seed corn costs? This is just 1 bag, 50lbs. Farmers, please don't list the answer right off....... you'll take the fun out of it.

Well I pay about $2.50/pound for grass seed so maybe about the same, $150?

jimbob200521 · #9 02-03-2016, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

I've farmed my whole life. No-Till is nothing new. I'll try to keep this short, as I have first hand experience with both conventional till, and no-till. My family progressed with farming like everyone did in the late 70's and early 80's when chemical started to come into play. We eventually went no-till and to say the least, it didn't work for us. Partly because granddad didn't know or understand how to do it. We eventually went the polar and complete opposite, going to 100% organic farming. No chemical whatsoever..... so we basically went back to farming like they did 50 years ago. We never did raise the bushels per acre that the chemical farmers did. Now, moving ahead a few years, I worked for a farmer that was 100% no-till. He was completely successful at it, raising some of the best crops I had seen. So, yes it can be done. Now I help some of my cousins farm. They run right down the middle. We no-till the beans, and till all the corn ground, so the soil gets worked every other year. My granddad actually did studies on his farm with the U of I (University of Illinois) AG department on different tillage types and the results. So.... yeah... I've seen a lot of different methods. My opinion, and that is all it is, because everyone has different results. See, there are too many factors to be able to establish a "rule". Soil type, size of equipment, rain (weather), seed brand/type/(and like 5 factors within each of those), seed spacing, plants per acre, all play a part in the successfulness of the crop. My opinion is: Tillage plays an important role. I have seen first hand in the same field, side by side crops all of the same seed, just different tillage methods applies, and the crops look darker green, and just all around more hearty than the ones that didn't get as much tillage. Then, as far as chemical usage, I believe it has it's place as well. So does cultivating crops (tillage post-emergence). This is a debate that will never end because farming depends on so much more than it looks like from the outside.

In a garden:
Unless you plan on using Round-Up ready sweetcorn in your garden, your going to need to till. If you decide to go no-till in the garden, your going to need a lot of mulch or something similar to control weeds. After all I've done and seen, I will plow my garden every year. In the spring or in the fall really doesn't seem to matter. Then I will till and plant. This leaves the soil soft so my cultivator will go in. I have too big of a garden to be able to weed by hand (hoe). If you have a small garden, can mulch or cover the soil, then it may work for you. The neat thing is, it's trial and error. It may work for you. It may not. I'm convinced about what I've seen, and I'll keep my plow, tiller, and cultivators.

Read these for some reference. I shared some stuff you may find interesting in the second link.

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=39111

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=32529

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=33055

Now that was just an uncalled for comment!

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

There is no cost savings. You spend less dollars in fuel, but more in chemical. Chemical is actually a little more expensive than the fuel...... or it used to be when fuel was as under $1.35.

Just for reference, anyone want to guess how much the average bag of seed corn costs? This is just 1 bag, 50lbs. Farmers, please don't list the answer right off....... you'll take the fun out of it.

After a few guesses at that, we'll have 'em guess how much it costs to fill a planter (such as the new one the farmer I work for just ordered) each day.

As far as tilling vs no tilling, I agree with everything you said. Too much to consider to make a sweeping "one is better than the other" statement. Around here, it seems most of the guys no till beans and do some form of tillage on the corn ground. We personally do that, and what we run over the corn ground is what is pictured below (ours may be a bit wider, hard to tell from the pic). Does a good job of "mixing things up". We also apply some lime before the ground is tilled at all so we stir that into the mix. During year, depending on season and crop, some chemical is usually, but not always, applied as well. That being said, there are a couple guys around here who do some pretty extreme tillage to the tune of not being able to tell last years crop after it's tilled unless you go digging for stalks.

Both have there place, both serve a their purpose.

jimbob200521 · #10 02-03-2016, 05:09 PM

Yay, I found a pic of what I was running this last fall (for some late nights but that's another story, one night until 5:30am :-O). This ripper pictured below is on its second (well 2016 will be 3rd if it sticks around) season for us. We're finding that the tillage equipment we use seems to keep getting longer and longer which isn't favorable for hilly ground. The newer models have both disk gangs together up front followed by the shanks in the middle then the "crumbler wheels" or drag in the rear.