Creeper system....

[157bradley]

Mike,

Since you have some experience with creepers, do they make a weak spot on the driveline if they are NOT engaged?

I may not be making myself clear......

I have ready many places that the creepers will break if you use them in a high torque application like pulling a heavy load up a hill with the Creeper in the LOW side.

My question is, if the Creeper is NOT engaged and you are pulling something heavy up the hill is it STILL a weak spot?

I am a little unsure if the power goes through the creeper even in the HIGH setting.

I hope that makes a little sense.

Regards, Brad

[Matt G.]

Originally Posted by 157bradley

Mike,

Since you have some experience with creepers, do they make a weak spot on the driveline if they are NOT engaged?

I may not be making myself clear......

I have ready many places that the creepers will break if you use them in a high torque application like pulling a heavy load up a hill with the Creeper in the LOW side.

My question is, if the Creeper is NOT engaged and you are pulling something heavy up the hill is it STILL a weak spot?

I am a little unsure if the power goes through the creeper even in the HIGH setting.

Yes, it does...there's a very good cross-section in the service manual that'll help you understand how it works.

[Mike McKown]

Originally Posted by 157bradley

According to factory manuals the ground speed on my 100 (and my 102 for that matter) is 2.3 mph in first gear.

I have two "off topic" garden tractors that came from the factory with granny first gears with minimum speeds of .3 mph and .6 mph respectively.

Thousands of these models of "off topic" tractors were built and are still in use so I am clearly not in the minority for thinking that granny gears are useful. It is a shame that I have to use something that isn't yellow and white to get what I need.

I know I could use a Hydro. I also own a 107, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as my 100.

Brad

Originally Posted by 157bradley

Mike,

Since you have some experience with creepers, do they make a weak spot on the driveline if they are NOT engaged?

I may not be making myself clear......

I have ready many places that the creepers will break if you use them in a high torque application like pulling a heavy load up a hill with the Creeper in the LOW side.

My question is, if the Creeper is NOT engaged and you are pulling something heavy up the hill is it STILL a weak spot?

I am a little unsure if the power goes through the creeper even in the HIGH setting.

I hope that makes a little sense.

Regards, Brad

"Weak spot" is a relative term, isn't it?

The first tractor I had a creeper gear in was a 108. It was near new and I had transposed a14 hp QL engine into it. I used to drag logs, pull cars and one time I even tied it off to a Kubota diesel tractor on pavement to see which tractor could pull the other backwards (I lost). I didn't need the creeper for more power, just used it to relieve strain on the clutch. Never seemed to hurt a thing and I still have the gear in one piece almost 40 years later. As I mentioned before, I did shear a driveshaft pin or two. Maybe that is the actual "weak point" in that driveline?

That's not to say that your intended use won't cause problems. I have no idea, only my past experience. Until I read this thread, I'd never heard of the creeper gear being a "weak spot" in a Cub driveline.

Also, I don't agree with the idea that running your Kohler engine slow pulling a moderate load will cause it to overheat as long as the engine isn't lugging.

Looks like you already have the answer to your situation. You can do one of these four things:

Use your Cub "as is" and modulate the throttle for your desired ground speed.

Install a creeper gear in your Cub and run the engine as fast as you think is necessary and select the appropriate gear.

Use your 107 and don't have as much fun.

Use your off brands that are already geared for what you want to do.

Whatever you do, don't pull a trailer that is heavier than you can safely stop it. With a Cub 100, I wouldn't think that would be much weight and keeping that thought in mind, I don't think that same weight would hurt a creeper gear. Your 100 has internal brakes and if you get one rear wheel light, you can lose all braking action instantly.

My advice is worth exactly what it cost you.

[Matt G.]

Originally Posted by Mike McKown

In my experience with using the Cub tiller, you're right the tiller does the work of pushing the the tractor. It also yanks the tractor back and forth when the ground is hard. That snatchin'/grabbin' is a lot harder on the driveline than a steady, hard pull. The jerking is how you break things. If the creeper gear has wear problems, I'm not aware of it.

It's a strength issue, not a wear issue. The tiller is much easier on the driveline than you'd imagine. Think about it...nearly all of the engine's power is going to the tiller. Very little is going to the wheels, particularly if the tiller is trying to move the tractor forward. Yes, the tiller is moving the tractor around, but not with anywhere near as much force as, for instance, pulling a moldboard plow and hooking a piece of trash, lugging down or stalling the engine. THAT is what's hard on the driveline.

In case it wasn't made clear earlier in the thread, the creeper still connects the engine to the transmission regardless of whether the creeper is in high or low, so the weak point is there when the creeper is in high, as well.

[Mike McKown]

Originally Posted by Matt G.

Yes, the tiller is moving the tractor around, but not with anywhere near as much force as, for instance, pulling a moldboard plow and hooking a piece of trash, lugging down or stalling the engine. THAT is what's hard on the driveline.

I see you live in Kansas. You got any experience with southern Indiana red clay.

Like I said, the jerking back and forth can tear up anything. A dead pull, not so much.

A '39 Ford three speed transmission would take 1000 sustained horsepower but and 85 horsepower flathead engine could tear one all to pieces by jerking on it.

I'd agree the creeper is not built as heavy as the trans/rear end. I'd also think that IH would not design something to put in these tractors (creeper) that would break. If you're gonna' use some kind of hot rod clutch, don't know. Anything could happen.

The only thing I ever had break was the driveshaft pins. To me, that is the weak point.

[Methos]

I agree with Matt the creeper it self is the weak point. Lots of parts to break inside and trying to locate them isn't cheap or easy. With that being said it's your stuff use how you want to use it.



There's no need in or

[Matt G.]

Originally Posted by Mike McKown

I see you live in Kansas. You got any experience with southern Indiana red clay.

You haven't been around here long enough to know that I'm not from Kansas...I have never pulled a plow in the ground here, or Indiana. I have been to several plow days in rock-hard no-till fields in Illinois...the fields are full of hard spots. You'll be plowing along and all of the sudden you'll come to a halt so fast you nearly get thrown over the hood, and the engine gets lugged down. Those situations are why I don't have a creeper in my 'plow' tractor. People would occasionally break a lot more than driveshaft pins.

Like I said, the jerking back and forth can tear up anything. A dead pull, not so much.

You'd be surprised...getting jerked to a halt from WOT in 2nd gear by a plow getting stuck is a lot harder on a tractor than having the tiller push it around. A dead pull will break things if the tires still have traction. If I follow your logic, the pullers would never break anything. You and I both know that they do.

A '39 Ford three speed transmission would take 1000 sustained horsepower but and 85 horsepower flathead engine could tear one all to pieces by jerking on it.

If the 1000 hp engine can put that amount of power to the ground through the transmission, it would break it too.

I'd agree the creeper is not built as heavy as the trans/rear end. I'd also think that IH would not design something to put in these tractors (creeper) that would break. If you're gonna' use some kind of hot rod clutch, don't know. Anything could happen.

The answer here is very simple: if used for what it was designed for (reduction of ground speed for tillers and snowthrowers) it is reliable because the very little of the engine's power is going through the transmission while either of those implements are being used. Put it in a tractor where the engine's full power is transmitted through the rear wheels, and that's another story.

You bring up an excellent point though...the clutch spring gives the input shaft bearing on the creeper a hard life. Using a stronger spring would shorten the life even more, which is another reason why my plow tractor does not have a creeper- the 800 lb/in spring would make me go through bearings like crazy.

[157bradley]

Originally Posted by Mike McKown

"Weak spot" is a relative term, isn't it?

The first tractor I had a creeper gear in was a 108. It was near new and I had transposed a14 hp QL engine into it. I used to drag logs, pull cars and one time I even tied it off to a Kubota diesel tractor on pavement to see which tractor could pull the other backwards (I lost). I didn't need the creeper for more power, just used it to relieve strain on the clutch. Never seemed to hurt a thing and I still have the gear in one piece almost 40 years later. As I mentioned before, I did shear a driveshaft pin or two. Maybe that is the actual "weak point" in that driveline?

That's not to say that your intended use won't cause problems. I have no idea, only my past experience. Until I read this thread, I'd never heard of the creeper gear being a "weak spot" in a Cub driveline.

Also, I don't agree with the idea that running your Kohler engine slow pulling a moderate load will cause it to overheat as long as the engine isn't lugging.

Looks like you already have the answer to your situation. You can do one of these four things:

Use your Cub "as is" and modulate the throttle for your desired ground speed.

Install a creeper gear in your Cub and run the engine as fast as you think is necessary and select the appropriate gear.

Use your 107 and don't have as much fun.

Use your off brands that are already geared for what you want to do.

Whatever you do, don't pull a trailer that is heavier than you can safely stop it. With a Cub 100, I wouldn't think that would be much weight and keeping that thought in mind, I don't think that same weight would hurt a creeper gear. Your 100 has internal brakes and if you get one rear wheel light, you can lose all braking action instantly.

My advice is worth exactly what it cost you.

Mike,

Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply.

Real experience is worth a LOT these days. It seems much mis-information gets circulated and repeated. Pretty soon it is accepted as gospel.

Many thanks, Brad

[Mike McKown]

Originally Posted by Matt G.

You haven't been around here long enough to know that I'm not from Kansas...I have never pulled a plow in the ground here, or Indiana. I have been to several plow days in rock-hard no-till fields in Illinois...the fields are full of hard spots. You'll be plowing along and all of the sudden you'll come to a halt so fast you nearly get thrown over the hood, and the engine gets lugged down. Those situations are why I don't have a creeper in my 'plow' tractor. People would occasionally break a lot more than driveshaft pins.



You'd be surprised...getting jerked to a halt from WOT in 2nd gear by a plow getting stuck is a lot harder on a tractor than having the tiller push it around. A dead pull will break things if the tires still have traction. If I follow your logic, the pullers would never break anything. You and I both know that they do.



If the 1000 hp engine can put that amount of power to the ground through the transmission, it would break it too.



The answer here is very simple: if used for what it was designed for (reduction of ground speed for tillers and snowthrowers) it is reliable because the very little of the engine's power is going through the transmission while either of those implements are being used. Put it in a tractor where the engine's full power is transmitted through the rear wheels, and that's another story.

You bring up an excellent point though...the clutch spring gives the input shaft bearing on the creeper a hard life. Using a stronger spring would shorten the life even more, which is another reason why my plow tractor does not have a creeper- the 800 lb/in spring would make me go through bearings like crazy.

Your profile says you are from Kansas.

The original poster asked what his options were to pull a wagon, not be under full power, max driveline load. I tried to supply him with some of my real world experience. He said nothing about pulling a plow. Or any other ground engagement device.

I've had my creeper gears in hard spots. Never a problem. I just tried to relay that to the original poster instead of getting all wound up in "weak spots" and other such rhetoric about a Cub driveline.

You input to the original poster I don't believe was helpful at all 'cause he's not pulling a plow. Just to try and see if there's any validity to what you say about "weak spots", I did a casual search here and tried to find someone who had a creeper gear fail. I didn't find any but I only checked several pages of search.

In any case, either you just like to argue or this forum is like a lot of the rest of them. My way or the highway. You (and someone else) on the other hand wanted to take it to a different level for what reason, I have no idea.

If you have credible testimony of creeper gears failing pulling wagons, please direct me to the appropriate thread!

[Methos]

Ok guys time to drop it. Any more and I'll close the thread.