k361 1650
 

I've been throwing the idea around in my head about building a k361 to drop into my 1650 that is awaiting resto. I am also thinking about adding power steering like Rescue11 did with his 1450 http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=32307) i know that one has to cut the "wings" off of the block and weld in blocks to allow the correct size oil pan sit in there. I would make a new exhaust that would use the original can so that from the outside the tractor looked the same. I also know that they have problems with the rockers locking up and dropping valve seats. I am thinking that closing the breather on the side of the block with an aluminum or steel plate and then putting a breather in the valve cover. a local cub guy has one for sale for $600 which seems to be the norm for these engines and it has a gasket set. so now that you have a wee bit of background i have several questions.

1. the tractor would see tilling duty twice a year and occasional mowing so would the electronic PTO from the K341 fit the 361?

2. when putting a breather in the top of the valve cover should i route the breather into the air cleaner? put just a plain filter in the top? or make a system with an oil catch can and then a filter to let the gasses escape?

3. when rebuilding it what rod should i use? would a 341 rod work? also i would like to use a performance cam. i really like kirk engines cam but he no longer makes them so would lakota's Cast Cam Grind # 117. has anyone used this cam in a machine that sees hard yard work and needs to start when cold? does it have compression release?

thanks. this build wont start till spring when its warm again up here and I am off for the summer.

I've done that mod. not in a 1650 but a 122 chassis. its pretty involved. the ears on the block need to be machined off and the holes welded or epoxied in . the pto probably won't work. the 361's had 1 1/8 pto end but you can use a crank out of a 16 with a 1 inch end. the motor sits a bit higher due to the rockers and valve cover. you probably won't be able to use the exhaust shrouding. most parts are NLA now. I know for a fact the rods are, only real choice is a 16 rod. but if the rod in the 18 is good just insert it. cam you won't find one better than the 361 cam. the Kirk cam is a copy of that , the lacota cam would be a step up. biggest problems with the 361 was the valve seats falling out.

Arnt the crankshafts the same from 12hp to 16hp in all the k series? which means if the 18hp crank is the same as the 16, then i could use a crank from any 12,14,16 hp k series engine yes? What did you do about the issue of oil up into the valve cover? do you think moving the breather from the side of the block to the top of the engine would solve this problem?

12 crank is different than the 14, 16 and 18 crank. counter weights are lighter. stock I never heard of excessive oil in the valve cover. I pulled with one for years , turned it over 9000, I had breathers in the valve cover on that one but that was to get more oil up to the valve train. only way oil can get to the rockers is through the pushrod tubes

Ahh yes i forgot about that problem. Alright so i will have to source a 14 or 16 hp crank. I am sorry i forgot to mention that it was the problem of the lack of oil. and it wont see high RPMs really at all only the duty of tilling and mowing and driving around the yard so good oil flow up there is important. so just adding a breather to the valve cover and blocking off the one in the block will solve this problem? should i vent the breather into the air cleaner to keep the engine cleaner? or will not a lot of oil make it out the breather? how did you go about putting a breather in the valve cover?

I just ran long hose's down off the breathers and had them hang down below the tractor. I had a set of roller tipped rockers made for it. the heavy valve springs I needed pretty much would wreck the stock stuff so we custom made everything on top of the head casting. made our own lifters and pushrods. I found some neat little breathers that I could bolt to the sides of valve cover and slip a half inch hose on it.

do you remember what kind of breathers they were? would you recommend running the hose to inside the air cleaner?

I don't remember. might have been off of a KT17

Just out of curiosity....... WHY? Why would you go to all that work for a motor that is basically obsolete? You already know that the valve seats are prone to fall out. All that fitting and machine work... why not just put a bigger cam in your 341, rebuild it and crank 18-20 HP out of it? Far less work, parts availability is better.... :bigthink: I mean, what's the gain? Overhead valves, that's about it as near as I can see.

yeah that is about the only advantage is that i would have overhead valves. It would be a lot easier to just put a cam in the 16. port & polish and shave the head some to get the HP up. but I have done that before so was just looking to do something different. i might just stick to the 16 as it would be easier and prob last longer and be more reliable for when i need to till or mow.

Zach Kerber machine sells a nice reground cam for $135. If you deck the block and take .045 or .050 off the head and put a nice three angle valve job on the valves. 20+ HP should easily be had out of a k341.

That's what I was thinking. Don't forget you can bump up the RPM to 3800 on it along with advance the timing a few degrees. All that will surprise you on how much power you will have.

I wasn't knocking on you or anything. I'm all for re-powers. It just doesn't make sense to me to use that particular motor. :beerchug:

actually with a bit of work you can get 20 out of a K321.

how much should one deck the block in order to get 20hp? doing a three angle for the valves I always do on my personal engines as well as polishing of the intake. does either Lakota's 117 or Zach Kerber machine's cam grind 1 or 2 have compression release for easier starting? also which cam is better in anyone's opinion? I am not looking to spin the engine faster the 3500 cause I simply don't usually need it that high. I mow with a mildly built k301 with a 48" deck and it doesn't have any problems. this 1650 will see tilling duty the most do im looking to build an engine that can handle that without any problems and sounds good while doing it. my theory is if I am in there to rebuild the engine since that is the route that I am going I might as well get HP that is there to be had.

J-mech; yeah I did not take it that way, just looking for opinions, I knew about the valve seat problem but wanted to try something different. I have always thought OHV engines were cool and why not use one in an old cub?

Yes either Kerber or Lakota cam will have a compression release. You send them your cam and they regrind it. If you are in a hurry I would recommend Kerber. Lakota has to send it out to be ground.

As for decking the block I always measure it. I have it decked so the piston is flush with the top of the block. That measurement is typically between .020 and .030. So before you disassemble the engine get your measurement.

Just wondering if the CH16 out of a 2166 would play?

The frame is so tall, IDK if it would fit.....

I have two QL's sitting here with no motor and a CH18 on a base. I could look and see how things line up. :bigthink:

Crank height is an issue. But could be solid mounted to help that. Then the trans could potentially be raised up to make up the difference.

But I am not sure if there would be any issues with width.

How about a cv style shaft and Sams adaptors for height misalignment? I'm guessing width would be an issue for side panels, at least it is for vanguard vtwins. I assume ch is comparable width? Be cool if it would fit, I see plenty of ch 16 and 18 donors on clist cheap.

Bill

This is the link to the service manual for the CH16, it has the dimensions of the engine.
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinec.../tp_2402_a.pdf
Not sure but I think you could use a motor plate like the later tractors did to mount the engine.

found a decent k361 down in WV for $50. so i figured why the heck not. the 16hp flat head will stay till i can decide what to do with the OHV. should be fun rebuilding the OHV.

I've finally aquired one! I stripped it down (more then what's pictured. Ready for a cleaning and new oversize piston. Also going to install rod bearings and have the crank journal ground .010 under. Been busy rebuilding engines for others and hard to find time to do mine especially since I'm back in college. Anywho. Hope u guys like the pics.

Looks like a beast of an engine! keep us posted!

While waiting for parts I decided to see what I could do to vent heat out from under the hood. I had a spare quietline hood so I came up with this. Really it's just the general shape right now need to weld sides for the louvers. But I think they look nice.

:beerchug:

Looks good! Interesting!

Fine if Ya don't leave it out in the rain!!:biggrin2:

Lol. Indeed. It won't be leaving it's shed to much when done. I haven't decided if it's going to get a 50a Deck or my 1a tiller. Either way it won't be my primary machine so it will spend most of its time cozy in the shed alongside the 169.

Nothing much to report this month. Been busy with my new job and finishing rebuilding engine for other people. Will let you guys know when things happen.

Before i left for vacation i dropped the k361 block off at the machine shop for a bore and hone for the new piston. also dropped off a k181 that i am rebuilding for a gent. Picked up a few 1450s that i will be using for parts and selling off the rest.

Further bulletins as events warrant. :biggrin2:

You wont regret going with the power steering if you do. I just recently finished my build of a power steering system. The only draw back i have is that is is not on my other tractor also. turns like butter. The way i did mine i sacrificed a little turning radius but oh well im happy. good luck with your project.

This evenings progress. K361 block got the sandpaper treatment. Also cleaned and painted the starter gen for my 169.

Also yesterday I employed the use of a sandblaster to clean up the head.

Keep up the good work! Thanks for the pics.

Looking good! No one ever did that swap before! Sweet! :biggrin2:

Always neat to use the oddball stuff... Looks like it would be a fun project... I really like your louvered hood... keep us posted!!:beerchug:

Same here. :beerchug:

Yes they have. Don's reply was on the first page. It was all discussed.....

I agree but it was not in a wide frame! LOL :biggrin2:

I'm no big fan of this OHV K series too Jon but the OP have plenty of time to think "Outside of the box" and enough money to try this swap.

I wish he success and don't get in trouble finding spare parts...Otherwise he may finish at the foundry and be reborn like this...:HeeHee:

http://www.kohler.ca/onlinecatalog/d...p?prod_num=361

Are you going to try to get "1850" decals made? Just wondering.