149 Starter Solenoid Killed?
 

I was jump starting my 149 yesterday and accidentally crossed the polarity of the cables. :Sad:
There was no sparking, smoke or flames, but I can only get it to start now if I hot wire the starter/generator. It runs fine, and the headlights work, so I don't think I killed that much. I'm thinking that I only killed the starter solenoid. Any suggestions before I buy one?

IF you have a DVM or VOM, you could see what the resistance between the small (#10) terminal and the case of the solenoid. If you have some resistance, say < 2K, chances that the coil is good. If it is open (or infinite) then the solenoid is toast.

If I remember correctly, most of those starter solenoids have an internal diode to protect it. Better chance that you killed the battery. Unless, when you say you short the starter you are using the battery on the machine. I guess you didn't specify, I just assumed you were doing it with jumper cables and another battery.

I did start it with another battery by hot wiring the starter with cables. The reason that I ruled out the battery is that the head and tail lights are still working. The solenoid was clicking before I crossed the polarity, but does nothing now. It only starts if I power the S/G directly from the second battery.

The amp draw required to power the lights is VERY minimal. Even a bad battery will power them. Do as Roland suggested and test the solenoid. If you find nothing, test or replace the battery.

Just went out and tried it with a different battery. Still no start with the key switch.

There ya go! Well, solenoid is cheaper than a battery!

On a side note, I did the same thing on my shop forklift once. The battery was getting weak and we had to put the charger on it occasionally. Well, I was in a hurry and talking on the phone while trying to hook up the charger. Yeah..... I cross connected it. Long story short, it got the battery and that was it. Went over to start it and it wouldn't do anything. I thought it was weird for as long as the charger had been on it. Then I realized what I did. Man, that battery was HOT! We've all been there!! :beerchug:

Steve,

Check your pto safety switch and brake pedal spring and see if it they are working,you know how those break....

I don't think it's the safety switches. All was well until I crossed the polarity.

How about the key switch? Could I have messed that up? Maybe not because the "run" position is till good.

Having a VOM and a test light are invaluable in this case. Swap tronix works but its better and cheaper to find out with a meter.

It is not the key switch,check the grounds .Otherwise test the solenoid like Roland suggest.


Keep us posted and let us know what got toasted.

I got about 2K Res from the small screw to the metal base of the solenoid. Battery also shows about 14 volts.

NEXT, you can make this test.

With a jumper wire, from the Battery (+) positive terminal to the small bolt (#10) on the solenoid , does this engage the solenoid by you hearing a "clicking" noise...???

Steve,
I gotta ask,is your pto handle in the engaged position?Pull back on it hold it there and turn the key and see what happens.

I'm gonna be out of town for a few days. I'll get back to the tractor next week.

Jumper wire from known good battery to small bolt does nothing. No clicks and no cranking. Jumper from battery to s/g makes it start.

I engaged and disengaged the PTO a few times to be sure the switch is not stuck.

I know one should not go into trouble shooting with a solution in mind, but I'm still thinking I killed the solenoid.

You don't say, but the test you just done, is this with a known good battery put into the Cub and hooked in the normal manner..??? :Huh:

Yes, Known good battery installed in the tractor in the normal fashion.

Sounds like you're correct about the solenoid being the culprit. 2k ohms from the coil stud to ground sounds very high to me. You did this test with the small wire isolated (disconnected) from the stud? If you check and have 12v positive to the coil of the solenoid during the start position its time to change it as you are right.

I tested resistance with the solenoid removed from the tractor.

I voice in my head is telling me to rule out the PTO and drive safety switches first.

If this is test didn't work, but direct to the battery did......

AND all this is true.....

Then it IS the solenoid. They don't cost that much. You can get one from a parts store. Take the old one in. I used to have the number for a Napa one. It's an old Ford solenoid.

From Advance Auto I think the solenoid is the GP Sorensen SS94Z for about $10. It has four studs for connecting wires, but you only use three of them for the Cub Cadets.

Come on people, the quickest & easiest way to troubleshoot electrical problems like this is with a simple test light. You should be able to go through the WHOLE starting system in less than 5 minutes.

Start at the battery cable, go to the solenoid, check to see if you have power to the small terminal when the key is in the start position.
If you do, check the other large terminal. No power, bad solenoid
If you do not have power to the small terminal, check the brake switch, ignition switch & wiring & connectors.

From what I have seen in many posts here, some people way over think basic electrical circuits. The Electrical systems on these machines are very basic, not like the systems in newer automotive, Thank god!!!

There is no shame in asking questions, but remember that the electronics used today were not even dreamed of when these machines were built.

Thanks for the gentle smack upside the head.:Forgot:

I did not intend to smack anyone upside the head, but I have seen many posts where a problem could be solved with simple tools ( like test lights) but some how VOM meters, and other test equipment seem to enter into the topic. Much of the equipment was not even around or had very limited use when these machines were built. We used adjust carbs with glass of water on the hood, no ripples ment the engine was smooth no tach. needed! Remember, Keep it simple!!

It was a gentle, friendly, fatherly slap. :)

LMAO! I read these threads, and often times roll my eyes and laugh to myself... Not because someone doesn't understand (there is absolutely NO shame in not understanding) but because those who do, sometimes seem to put way too much thought, effort and technology into figuring out that there is power on this side but none on that side.

As far as the Cubs go, I almost never break out a meter. When troubleshooting an electrical problem, a test light will tell you everything you need to know. Light on when it should be... Light off when it should be. Sometimes you will get a dim light (it doesn't matter if you are getting 5.6 volts or 9.8, if the light ain't bright, something ain't right!) it isn't that hard to tell the difference.

I would suggest we NEVER laugh at or sway anyone away from learning a new skill or learning how to use a new tool (especially a multimeter).

A simple test light will find the "hard" failures but will never pick up subtle voltage drops in starter cables, broken ground wires to coil points, dim headlights caused by 19 of the 20 strands of the headlight wire corroded away without additional "guesswork" on the part of the person using the test light. That one strand of wire left in the headlight circuit will make the little test lamp glow brightly enough but still have the more powerful headlights starving for power. This scenario may even avoid quick fool diagnosis with a multimeter. Understanding how a circuit or system works is always the best troubleshooting tool.

An ohmmeter will easily show a 2k ohm trigger terminal to ground resistance that will prevent a starter relay from engaging. A person using a multimeter will can diagnose a corroded ground connection before even taking the relay off the tractor !! A test light would have sent you driving off to the store to pickup a new starter relay as the test light would have turned on full brightness on that same trigger terminal.

Excessive voltage drop on the SG wiring? How you going to tell where the voltage drops excessively without a meter? Battery cable? Starter relay contacts pitted? Bad wire from relay to SG? Put down the light and pickup the meter.

YOU must understand what the tool is telling you AND ITS LIMITATIONS. TEST LIGHTS HAVE PLENTY !!

As someone learns and masters the use and interpretation of multimeter they will be more capable of diagnosing subtle issues a test light can't touch. Learn to use the tool and in turn learn more about the electrical system your working on. Never stop learning. Never stop acquiring more understanding about the hobby you have chosen.

p.s. When you reach a point of total understanding of the electrical system, even a test light is not needed. Give me a piece of wire with alligator clips on each end and with the understanding I gained from using a multimeter, I trust I can locate any issue in record time.

I remember when I was in the Air Force we were taught how to use multimeters and it has served me well over the years but I also remember having to troubleshoot a problem were when the electronic cabinet door was close the equipment didn't work , open the door and everything was great. There was no short concerning the door. Or something would work if you leaned on it, otherwise no go. Those drove up crazy. Another was when our shift got the problem 99% solved and the following shift made things worse than before...:bash2:

Swapped in a used solenoid and we are back in business. Thanks Lew.

Great response. I don't "roll my eyes" when I see someone struggling here and replacing pieces bit by bit to remedy a problem that could be seen with a dvom or even an old school Simpson 260 meter with proper use. Granted, this issue could be troubleshot with a test light but as iron has stated not all of them can be. I myself have struggled with things that others have called "simple" but take the swaptronix and luck out of the troubleshooting process and then you can see who's really got an understanding of things.

Steve you owe me a Pabst

I'll bring a few next time.

you da man!