OCC FAQ painting 101

[cub149]

It would be nice to have a painting 101 in the new OCC FAQ section. Things to get someone started in painting like spray guns and sizes, in line filters and regulators, paints to use and colors, basic techniques such as sanding priming, finish coats and whatever else that would be important to know for a first timer. It wouldn't need to be to in-depth, but enough to make one comfortable to get started.
Like for now I am looking for a spray gun but have no idea of size or which of the cheap ones are good. I have looked at Harbor Freight, Lowes and wouldn't know if one was good or bad.
I know a lot has been discussed on here about painting but it would be nice to be able to read all of this in one area and then if there where any questions they could be discussed further. I think this would help a lot of us that want to "get off of rattle cans" to make the move. Kinda like AA except RCA (rattle can anonymous)
Just a thought. And remember, there are some people here that don't feel comfortable asking any questions at all, they just read what they can and go with it. Come on, pour out that knowledge for us.

[R Bedell]

Something tells me we have some Professional Painters amongst us. Perhaps they can contribute something,

[toyman]

Originally Posted by cub149

It would be nice to have a painting 101 in the new OCC FAQ section. Things to get someone started in painting like spray guns and sizes, in line filters and regulators, paints to use and colors, basic techniques such as sanding priming, finish coats and whatever else that would be important to know for a first timer. It wouldn't need to be to in-depth, but enough to make one comfortable to get started.
Like for now I am looking for a spray gun but have no idea of size or which of the cheap ones are good. I have looked at Harbor Freight, Lowes and wouldn't know if one was good or bad.
I know a lot has been discussed on here about painting but it would be nice to be able to read all of this in one area and then if there where any questions they could be discussed further. I think this would help a lot of us that want to "get off of rattle cans" to make the move. Kinda like AA except RCA (rattle can anonymous)
Just a thought. And remember, there are some people here that don't feel comfortable asking any questions at all, they just read what they can and go with it. Come on, pour out that knowledge for us.

There's a lot of variables, especially when you're going from equipment to prep techniques to priming & painting. There's a million ways to skin a cat and there are more paint and prep products on the market than you can shake a stick at. (OK, enough with the cliches!) So, here's what I know and do. It's not the only way, or the only right way, I just know it works for me.

Equipment.
If you plan on spraying you will need a reasonably sized compressor. I would recommend a minimum of 10 cfm @ 90 psi single stage 60 gallon. It won't keep up with an HVLP gun, but for the size of the tractors we have, you can let it re-fill until you get to the next piece without issue. This size of compressor will also do "OK" if you did a total respray of a car, but is not the best option, which is an 60-80 gallon 2 stage compressor that has 14-17cfm @ 175 psi.

The guns I am familiar with are conventional, compliant, HVLP (high volume, low pressure), and LVLP (low volume low pressure). Conventional are normally the older style suction feed guns that need approximately 35-40 psi. They throw a lot of paint and overspray (inefficient). This was the gun type of choice in the 70's through the 80's. Compliant guns are a 'tweener of conventional and HVLP. They have a lower 'transfer rate' (I believe around 60%) than HVLP (I believe around 80%) but a higher transfer rate than conventional . This equals more efficiency with paint. HVLP is a government standard to get the transfer rate to keep pollutants down. This is done by supplying the proper pressure feed to the gun to get 10 psi at the cap. The feed pressure is different per gun manufacturer but is in the 35-45 psi range. HVLP guns do a very nice job, but do spray a bit dry in comparison to conventional and compliant. If you've never sprayed before this is not an issue, as you'll get comfortable with whatever you use. The problem with HVLP guns is that they are air hogs. The require a lot of CFM, and most single stage compressors can't keep up. This is where the LVLP guns came into play, especially for us hobbyists. They have a very good transfer efficiency, and are also very efficient using air. These guns can give great results with smaller compressors.

Here's what I have and use. I have a Binks #7 pressure feed gun from the '70's that I don't use much anymore. I have a chinese knockoff of a the same Binks #7, but a suction feed that I use to spray primers. I have a Sharpe HVLP gun that I bought in the early '90's. It is setup to shoot base coats with a 1.4 Tip. I also have a Sharpe Finex 1000 mini-hvlp for smaller work. The Finex guns, along with the Devilbiss Finishline series are excellent hobbyist guns and reasonably priced. My 'good' gun is a Devilbiss Plus, which came with 3 tips and is an excellent clear coat, base coat, and single stage paint gun. (Actually an excellent all-around gun) I painted many cars in the early '80's with the Binks #7 with acrylic enamal paints. The newer guns are more consistent and make the job easier.

Prep-work
This is more important than anything else when you paint. Scape any heavy dirt & grease. Pressure wash if necessary. Wash with soap & water. Then wipe with a good grease/wax remover. Then you can start any sanding & grinding. Once you have all the rust and scale removed, wipe again with grease/wax remover and then treat with a metal prep. This is a crossroads. Do you want to smooth your workpiece with sandpaper or filler? If you want to sand it almost finished smooth, then go for it. Sand the previous marks out with a higher grit paper. Feather the paint. If you can feel the transition you will see it in your final paint. If you want to fill, choose your primer and shoot a coat.

Primers
There are many types of primers. Wash primers, self etching primers, and epoxy primers, I'm most familiar with. You cannot use a 'metal prep' before a self etching primer. Also, some epoxy primers are not compatible with self-etching primers. Make sure with any paint product that you ask for or download the "P-sheet". This will tell you recommended uses, mix rates, reducers/thinners necessary for temp ranges etc. Don't guess, use the "P-Sheet". Here's what I do: Once I am happy with my sanding/grinding and I've wiped with grease/wax and metal prep, I shoot a heavy coat of epoxy primer. I use PPG Omni products, as I feel they are a good 'bang for your buck'. Most paint manufacturers have a lower cost "shopline". When the epoxy is dry I check the finish and use one of the following: regular putty (bondo), 2 part glazing putty, sprayable filler. Sprayable filler rocks, and this is where the chinese knockoff guns come in handy. If you clog up a $35 gun, you won't be as mad as a $400 gun. Actually, the same goes for the epoxy primer. It is a 2 part system, and if you don't clean your gun well, it will be scrap when the epoxy hardens in the internals. The "P-Sheets" also tell you what solvents you need for clean up. Sand the filler smooth, apply more if necessary to get the final results you're looking for. Once you're happy with your work, shoot another coat of epoxy. The nice thing about this is, if you're happy with the finish, you have window that you can shoot color right over the fresh epoxy. Plus this gives an excellent chemical bond between the paint and epoxy. If you miss the window, you can scuff and shoot color, or another sealer coat, but again, you can read your "P-Sheet" for that information. What I really like about the epoxy is how durable it is in comparision to other primers.

Paint
Again, I like PPG's shopline of Omni in Acrylic Urethane. It's a good, durable, and cost effective paint. I sprayed a lot of cars with acrylic enamel, which has the same benefits. The issue with AE is that it is more weather sensitive which means you need to tweak the mix to get it to lay nicely. The AU is a specific mix (yes, you guessed it, P-Sheet) and is consistent every time. You do have to choose the appropriate temp reducer with either, but the AU is easier and more consistent. I've sprayed base/clear on cars, but feel it's a bit overkill for tractors. A painter friend of mine calls B/C @$$hole paint, because he says any @$$hole can spray it. He is a real gem:biggrin2.gif: I don't necessarily agree with him, but understand his point. You can run/sag/orange peel a clear coat paint job, and as long as you have the patience to color sand and buff you can bring most to a very nice finish. It's not as easy to correct an AE or AU paint job.

Other Equipment:
Respiratory Protection. Charcoal respirators are not recommended for the isocyanurates (sp?) in these paints. They are odorless, and you will not know if your respirator is working or not. It's very risky to use a charcoal mask and many do, and I have. About 5 years ago I bought a fresh air system for around $400 and it's the best thing I could have done. I am sensitized to these chemicals. Not to the point of having breathing trouble, but I do get a 'heavy chest' for a few days, if I'm around them with out proper protection. There are people that will have very bad reactions based on their sensitivity and some have died or been debilitated. Very real risk involved with these chemicals.

Again, many other products and procedures. These are just a very brief overview off the top of my head. I'm sure others will be able to put their experience and knowledge in also.

[Matt G.]

+1 for the PPG Shop Line and the fresh air system. I figure the $350 for the fresh air system was cheaper than a trip to the hospital. I have used it a lot. I'm no professional painter, but I have painted a few Cub Cadet items.

I also use one of the Harbor Freight HVLP guns, and it is actually pretty decent for the money. There is some info floating around on the internet about the proper setup for it. I used it to paint my loader, and it did a pretty good job, considering my shoddy prep work. The nice thing about the gravity feed guns is that they are much easier to clean and there is minimal waste.

[toyman]

Originally Posted by Matt G.

+1 for the PPG Shop Line and the fresh air system. I figure the $350 for the fresh air system was cheaper than a trip to the hospital. I have used it a lot. I'm no professional painter, but I have painted a few Cub Cadet items.

I also use one of the Harbor Freight HVLP guns, and it is actually pretty decent for the money. There is some info floating around on the internet about the proper setup for it. I used it to paint my loader, and it did a pretty good job, considering my shoddy prep work. The nice thing about the gravity feed guns is that they are much easier to clean and there is minimal waste.

Good point on the cleaning with the gravity feed. You don't need to connect to air and spray the atomized cleaning solution all over the place. With the gun un-connected to the air supply, when you pull the trigger the solvent will stream from the tip. I normally clean into a 5 gal pal and then dispose of the waste properly. Gun setup. With your material in the gun about 8-10" from the wall (tape a piece of masking paper), squeeze the trigger for a second. You should see a 8-10" fan in the shape of a thin football. Check to see that there are no thin spots. If the fan is too small, turn your fan adjustment out (usually the top adjustment) If the edges are thin and spotty or if the paint is running, you need to adjust the volume, which is the lower adjustment. Once you get it set for a nice, evenly filled thin football, you're ready to shoot. A well cared for value gun from Harbor Freight or Tool Supplier will last a long while if well cared for and not called on to perform every day. My $25 primer gun is probably 12 years old.

[cub149]

I'm planning a trip to HF this weekend. I appreciate the help so far but what I was after was a list of what one would need to get started. I plan to buy 2 hvlp guns. They have several to choose from. The only mention of tip size above is 1.4 for paint. Should I have a larger tip size for primer? They have another gun with a 1.5 tip. They also have one gun with 3 tip sizes, 1.0, 1.4, 1.5. Seems to me two guns would be better instead of one? They also have a detail gun. Would there be an advantage to this for small parts vs. the larger gun?
What else should I get, inline filter and what type(for close to the gun)? air regulator for the gun (one gun has it but the others don't)?
Anything else?

[Matt G.]

I only use one gun for both primer and paint, and I think it has the 1.4 tip. It works fine for both. I can't see the advantage of having a detail gun...that just means you have to clean two guns instead of just one. It is a big enough PITA to clean just one. They have inline filters that are about the size of a large pleated paper fuel filter cartridge that I'd put right at the gun, and I'd put a drier somewhere between the compressor and gun, the closer to the gun the better. The really old regulator we have has a water trap thingy built in and it works pretty good. Get some of those blue nitrile gloves so you don't get paint and chemicals all over your hands. That's about all I can think of, assuming you have a compressor and air hoses.

Edit:

Not sure what type of gun you are looking at, but I'd recommend a gravity feed...they use a lot more of the paint and clean up easier than the kind that has the cup mounted on the bottom.

I would also recommend looking into getting a fresh air system...hardener is some nasty stuff that can do some serious harm to your body. The system I bought was over $300 on ebay, but that's cheaper than a visit to the hospital if you inhale too many fumes. The more times you use it, the cheaper it gets.

[cub149]

Thanks Matt, that is some good info. I am looking at the gravity feed guns. I have a pretty good compressor and plenty of hoses. The compressor has a regulator on it but I keep seeing the guns with a regulator on the end of the gun so...
As far as a drier goes they have the ones that take the silica desiccant, would this be good enough? I have a water trap near the compressor but I would like to make sure nothing goes wrong.

I understand the fresh air system and take it seriously, BUT it's not in the budget and I will have an exhaust fan and masks with cartridges for paint. I accept the dangers and take them seriously.

[toyman]

Cub149 - 2 things. First if you're going to use a mask get fresh cartridges. Second, tips are recommended based on the solids of what you are shooting. You don't want to spray a filler primer with a small tip for example. Once you decide on your paint/primer the P-sheet will tell you the recommended tip size. Another bonus comment.two good reasons for a primer gun and a topcoat gun. First is cross contamination and second if you spend some money on a good topcoat gun you don't want to chance epoxy or filler primer sprayed thru it.

[Mountain Heritage]

Very good points being brought to the table here guys! Thank you.

One thing I would like to add.... again only my . No matter if your only wearing a mask or you have a fresh air system....if you have the means to use an exhaust fan - use it. When spraying my furniture with precatalist lacquer and sealer, the overspray can get pretty nasty if your spraying for an hour or so steady. Two reasons for this, lack of air flow in the shop to move the overspray out of the way, and my CRAP gun. I too know what you mean about the "budget" when buying guns. The one I have is about 14 years old and doesn't owe me a dime. Just other tools that could/would come in handy before a new gun. Someday I will work a new gun into the price of a dresser or bed - until now, I will kick my @$$ around the shop each time I spray and mubble sweet under my filter mask.
One thing I find handy and have always used it - get yourslef a lazy susan set up. Mine is just a cheap $10.00 ring that is about 12" around and full of ball bearings. I screw it to my low bench that I only use for spraying, and have a piece of plywood screwed to the top of the lazy susan. that way you can put stuff flat on the plywood and shoot it, or what I normally do is have two pieces of 1"x16" scrap wood screwed to the plywood and it will suspend the peice off the plywood. This allows you to grab underneath it when you need to pick it up and move it to another location to dry. I have seen other guys here hang stuff from the ceiling with wire - works great for larger things, but not everything is easy to paint hanging in mid air. I would imagine - but I have yet to do it - painting the hood of a Cub would be much easier laying flat on a bench and able to turn in which ever direction you want to shoot it. This also allows you to let the light hit it in a certain direction to see how the paint looks after shooting it to make sure you didn't miss anything. I use a couple of the cheap square work lights that have like a gazilion candle power rating to light things up in addition to my regular lights in the shop. In my opinion you can never have too much light while shooting stuff.

Remember, the above is just things that I have learned over the years and picked up from watching others. Many will likely shake their heads, which is fine - I don't claim to be a proffesional painter/finisher, and I never will be. I am happy with that too!