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  #11  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:20 PM
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cooperino cooperino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mech View Post
You can't have compression without air.
Fuel will burn without compression. Just won't make any power.
Jon. You answered your own question. No compression equals no power and no run. You can burn fuel without air. Gas with burn with Co only oxygen helps but not required. You answered it before also when you said an engine Will run with LOW compression, but not zero compression and you know it. Compression is a key factor in an engine running plain and simple.
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  #12  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Merk View Post
Jon is correct.

In my 50 plus years working on engines I never heard there was 4 things needed to make an engine run. All my teaching manuals never said there was 4 things to keep an engine running. I've learned, I've taught anyone who wanted to learn, was an Ohio State Fair small engine judge for years. I do seminars at 2-3 different tractor shows every year. Expert I'm not....still learning....

I used to train local Vo-ag kids to compete in a local small engine trouble shooting contest. They had 6-8 different stations where the ag students had to answer questions or the best one was trouble shoot an engine. They had to fix 3 different things in 30 minutes. One of the best one was putting tape around the air filter and putting pre cleaner on so it didn't show the tap. Someone posted that air is ambient or always around. In this case air wasn't
ambient or always around. Remove the tape from the air filter and the engine ran. What was simulated was a plug air filter.

My current job is trying to keep 50 golf carts and 20 grounds keeping machines running at a local golf course.
You taught all these kids and didn't teach the 4 basic principles of an engine cycle?
Intake, COMPRESSION, power, exhaust....

This is too basic to be discussed really.. not sure what you were teaching there.
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  #13  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RLause View Post
Tell grain elevator operators you need compression for dust to explode. Gasoline vapor doesn't need compression to burn.
Oh.. it will burn. But without compression will the engine run? NOPE
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2018, 12:12 AM
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What are the odds that I don't check in for a couple hours and a pissing match breaks out? 100%
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2018, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olds45512 View Post
What are the odds that I don't check in for a couple hours and a pissing match breaks out? 100%
Tim,

I would not call it a pissing match,.

Jon stated,Quote:
Engines need 3 things to run: fuel, air, and ignition. Figure out which one of the 3 it isn't getting.
That goes in with air.
If the piston isn't moving, no air.
If a valve is stuck open, or isn't opening, it isn't getting air.:quote:

I was simply reminding him that even with air fuel and spark being present that without compression the engine still will not run.. I didnt say low compression. I said NO compression. If a piston is moving at all even with no compression air is still present. fuel may ignite but that does not mean the engine will run.
I am not trying to ruffle feathers. The OP said he heard a "pop" that pop could have been a valve, head gasket, etc.

If he bent a valve on a 2 cylinder the other cylinder could still pull air in but have zero compression on the other cylinder.
So, He would have Jons, Air, fuel and spark and possibly still not run.



Briggs and stratton still shows the basic principle of 4 elements on their website.
https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na...le-theory.html
The 4-Stroke System that Power Your Small Engine
In order to power your equipment, the engine completes a repeating 4-step process detailed below.

Element that Allow Internal Combustion Engines to Run
Air
Fuel
Compression
Spark

I should not have said Jon was completely wrong. You do need air for an engine to run obviously but I have never worked in an environment where air was not available.


SO Merk, There are the 4 basic elements needed. Most people today refer to 3
Intake, compression, spark. Intake would include air/fuel mixture.


If I am wrong tell me how.
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  #16  
Old 09-15-2018, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by C&O2-10-4 View Post
Recently my CCC 3240 would backfire when I shut it down, ( I do throttle down before I turn it off); anyway I was mowing the other day for several hours and all of a sudden it just quit, I believe I heard a pop when that happened. I can't get it started, could I have a bent engine valve ? cannot see anything wrong, no oil, or crack in the engine block.

C&O2-10-4
Now to actually help the OP....

You should of course make sure you have fuel and its getting to carb. Check spark both cylinders. If both are present I would pull one plug at a time and see if you have compression. If you don't have a compression gauge you should still be able to feel the pressure coming out off park plug hole.

If this was as an abrupt stop as you say it was and you heard a pop other than the backfire sound there may be a bent/broken valve or a blown gasket.
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  #17  
Old 09-15-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cooperino View Post
You taught all these kids and didn't teach the 4 basic principles of an engine cycle?
Intake, COMPRESSION, power, exhaust....

This is too basic to be discussed really.. not sure what you were teaching there.
Anyone that was in my class learned what each stroke did. There is a difference between each stroke does and what an engine needs to run.

If you have a vessel with a lid that has air and fuel in it (not compress) and add a spark to it.....the air-fuel should ignite and blow the lid off the vessel. The lid may not go very far from the vessel.

Lets take that same vessel-pressurize the air fuel mixture and add a spark. The lid should go father from the vessel than the non compress simulation when the compress air fuel is ignited.

My point...….
We had work being done without the air fuel mixture being compress. I disagree with briggs site. I have old briggs manuals stating you only need air-fuel-spark.

I will leave you with this thought......the old Kohler K series have a compression release built into it.

I'm not turning this into a pissing match. I will agree to disagree with cooperino
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  #18  
Old 09-15-2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merk View Post
Anyone that was in my class learned what each stroke did. There is a difference between each stroke does and what an engine needs to run.

If you have a vessel with a lid that has air and fuel in it (not compress) and add a spark to it.....the air-fuel should ignite and blow the lid off the vessel. The lid may not go very far from the vessel.

Lets take that same vessel-pressurize the air fuel mixture and add a spark. The lid should go father from the vessel than the non compress simulation when the compress air fuel is ignited.

My point...….
We had work being done without the air fuel mixture being compress. I disagree with briggs site. I have old briggs manuals stating you only need air-fuel-spark.

I will leave you with this thought......the old Kohler K series have a compression release built into it.

I'm not turning this into a pissing match. I will agree to disagree with cooperino
Yes. The Kohler has a Compression release. as soon as it fires once it no longer releases. Then you have compression and it will run.

The whole point here is an engine will not run with zero compression. I never said fuel would not ignite without compression. Jons statement was you only need 3 things to run. air, fuel, and spark. That statement is not true. You can have those 3 things but without compression the engine will not run.

If you disagree with that, show me an engine running with zero compression,

Also. if the valve is stuck open. The you will not build pressure to "blow cap off lid" no power. Cut a hole in the can and try to blow the lid off..
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2018, 10:50 AM
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Suck
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Bang
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  #20  
Old 09-15-2018, 10:58 AM
J-Mech J-Mech is offline
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Coop, would you shut up. Your not making yourself look any smarter, and you aren't swaying anyone's opinion. And.... I'm not going to debate with you. Your think your too smart to learn. I too will just agree that you're wrong and move on.
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