Help With A Few Questions

[mhbtsc]

Originally Posted by Gompers

If you're being particular, I wasn't incorrect.

Originally Posted by Gompers

In that case, the bad news is he'll need a 3 point, either CCC or aftermarket

Originally Posted by Gompers

The correct way to mount a plow would be to install a Category 0 3 point hitch.

Both of these statements made by you seem to indicate that a cat 0 3pt is the ONLY option. Which is not true....

Originally Posted by Gompers

While it's possible to put an aftermarket IH style hitch on an MTD built aluminum rear end tractor,

Wrong again....

There is no aftermarket "IH style" hitch. Only OEM. If you want an "aftermarket" one, you have to built it yourself.

An IH hitch attaches right to the frame, and will attach without any modification to anything. On the lower bracket, you can modify the original to fit by drilling holes, (in the lower bracket) and adding ears, or drill holes and take your chance on the bolts. Seen guys pull from the aluminum housing with just the bolts and are fine. Keep in mind, on the cast rears, there are only 3 bolts holding the lower bracket on, but on the aluminum rear there are 5. But the addition of "ears" really help take the stress off the rear bolts that can pull the threads out of the case if one is too "rough".

Originally Posted by Gompers

and it's possible to put an aftermarket 3 point on a cast iron one,

Also a somewhat misleading statement. Both an OEM and aftermarket 3 pt will bolt right onto a cast iron rear with no modifications.

Originally Posted by Gompers

the correct one for the aluminum rear end is the 3 point and the correct one for the cast iron is the IH style one.

I think the correct answer is "offered". CCC quit "offering" the IH hitch with the introduction of the aluminum rear. Mainly because it was obsolete and proprietary. The shift was to Cat 0 implements for the GT world, and CCC just followed suit like everyone else did. It has nothing to do with "correct" and "incorrect".

It's really no different that putting a larger engine into a machine to replace a smaller one. It fits, it bolts up and works. Or like putting a high back seat on a 125. It isn't what it came from the factory with, but a high back will bolt on. Only incorrect to a guy who want to "keep it original".

Originally Posted by Gompers

I just posted the 1994 attachment guide that details specifically that.

Lol.... ok, if you say so.

[Gompers]

Originally Posted by mhbtsc

Both of these statements made by you seem to indicate that a cat 0 3pt is the ONLY option. Which is not true....





Wrong again....

There is no aftermarket "IH style" hitch. Only OEM. If you want an "aftermarket" one, you have to built it yourself.

An IH hitch attaches right to the from and will attach without any modification to anything. On the lower bracket, you can modify the original to fit by drilling holes, and adding ears, or drill holes and take your chance on the bolts. Seen guys pull from the aluminum housing with just the bolts and are fine. Keep in mind, on the cast rears, there are only 3 bolts holding the lower bracket on, but on the aluminum rear there are 5.




Also a somewhat misleading statement. Both an OEM and aftermarket 3 pt will bolt right onto a cast iron rear with no modifications.




I think the correct answer is "offered". CCC quit "offering" the IH hitch with the introduction of the aluminum rear. Mainly because it was obsolete and proprietary. The shift was to Cat 0 implements for the GT world, and CCC just followed suit like everyone else did. It has nothing to do with "correct" and "incorrect".




Lol.... ok, if you say so.

Dude. It's black and white in CCC's documentation. The cat 0 is for s/n 720000 and up. That's aluminum rear ends. It's not for 719999 and below. That's cast iron. I literally just spent an hour scanning it all in. Go look. I'll even attach the relevant page. Will it fit? Maybe. Is it correct for the tractor? No. It's not engineered for the cast aluminum rear end.

Extreme makes aftermarket bottom brackets, which is what you need to safely run an IH style 3 point on an aluminum rear end. The same people who make the aftermarket 3 point hitch. Extreme and others also make the rest of the hitch parts aftermarket as well. Lift rods, rocker shaft things, pins, frankenstein bolts. It's all available.

[mhbtsc]

Originally Posted by Gompers

Dude. It's black and white in CCC's documentation. The cat 0 is for s/n 720000 and up. That's aluminum rear ends. It's not for 719999 and below. That's cast iron. I literally just spent an hour scanning it all in. Go look. I'll even attach the relevant page. Will it fit? Maybe. Is it correct for the tractor? No. It's not engineered for the cast aluminum rear end.

Extreme makes aftermarket bottom brackets, which is what you need to safely run an IH style 3 point on an aluminum rear end. The same people who make the aftermarket 3 point hitch. Extreme and others also make the rest of the hitch parts aftermarket as well. Lift rods, rocker shaft things, pins, frankenstein bolts. It's all available.

I'm well aware of that info. That doesn't make your answer correct. The IH hitch will fit and work fine on an aluminum rear, and the 3pt will bolt on and work just fine with a CI rear. IH never made an aluminum rear, but they designed the IH 3pt hitch..... your point is mute. It fits, it works, and it's cheaper and functional. Either option is fine, but one over the other is not "correct".

The exact same 3pt hitch on a 982 came on an 1872. IH never offered the cat 0 on a GT, that's all. MTD did. ONLY reason for the difference.

Not really anything to debate....

[Gompers]

Originally Posted by mhbtsc

I'm well aware of that info. That doesn't make your answer correct. The IH hitch will fit and work fine on an aluminum rear, and the 3pt will bolt on and work just fine with a CI rear. IH never made an aluminum rear, but they designed the IH 3pt hitch..... your point is mute. It fits, it works, and it's cheaper and functional. Either option is fine, but one over the other is not "correct".

The exact same 3pt hitch on a 982 came on an 1872. IH never offered the cat 0 on a GT, that's all. MTD did. ONLY reason for the difference.

Not really anything to debate....

The IH hitch was not designed to work with MTD's cast aluminum rear end. Full stop. To use it safely, IMO, you need aftermarket parts.

It's "moot" not "mute". And the point isn't "mute". A 451 blower will fit on a 782 but it won't work the way it was designed. The point is that if MTD wanted to offer the IH style hitch on aluminum rear ends, it would have been trivial to reengineer it like they should have. If you run the stock IH 3 point on a stock MTD aluminum rear, you risk yanking the bolts out of your housing. You might get away with it, but you also might not. That's why you should reinforce the rear end or use a modified bracket with ears that wrap around to the sides of the transaxle if you decide to do it.

IH did offer the Cat 0 on their MTD manufactured GTs, if we are being pedantic.

[mhbtsc]

Originally Posted by Gompers

The IH hitch was not designed to work with MTD's cast aluminum rear end. Full stop. To use it safely, IMO, you need aftermarket parts.

Well, no the IH hitch wasn't "designed" to work on MTD's aluminum rear end. One was made by IH and the other MTD. That doesn't mean it won't bolt on and work. You seem to know nothing really..... only what you have read. Have you ever even pulled a plow with a GT?

Originally Posted by Gompers

It's "moot" not "mute". And the point isn't "mute".

And while losing the argument, we resort to spelling errors. Typical.

Originally Posted by Gompers

A 451 blower will fit on a 782 but it won't work the way it was designed. The point is that if MTD wanted to offer the IH style hitch on aluminum rear ends, it would have been trivial to reengineer it like they should have. If you run the stock IH 3 point on a stock MTD aluminum rear, you risk yanking the bolts out of your housing. You might get away with it, but you also might not. That's why you should reinforce the rear end or use a modified bracket with ears that wrap around to the sides of the transaxle if you decide to do it.

We aren't talking about a mechanical driven attachment. We are talking about a bolt on one. What you are debating is like saying you can't put a 6.50 tire on a 782 because the 782 didn't come out with narrow tires. The point is?????

Originally Posted by Gompers

IH did offer the Cat 0 on their MTD manufactured GTs, if we are being pedantic.

Really? Name the model. IH didn't build MTD machines.




I think you better study the history of the IH sale of Cub Cadet to MTD some more. You seem confused.



One of us is being pedantic, the other is being empirical.

[sorner]

Jon, is that you? We missed you buddy!

[Gompers]

Originally Posted by mhbtsc

Well, no the IH hitch wasn't "designed" to work on MTD's aluminum rear end. One was made by IH and the other MTD. That doesn't mean it won't bolt on and work. You seem to know nothing really..... only what you have read. Have you ever even pulled a plow with a GT?




And while losing the argument, we resort to spelling errors. Typical.




We aren't talking about a mechanical driven attachment. We are talking about a bolt on one. What you are debating is like saying you can't put a 6.50 tire on a 782 because the 782 didn't come out with narrow tires. The point is?????




Really? Name the model. IH didn't build MTD machines.




I think you better study the history of the IH sale of Cub Cadet to MTD some more. You seem confused.

It's the other way around. MTD's rear end wasn't designed to use the IH lift. And that's why they didn't offer it. I do know that you risk pulling out bolts. Otherwise there wouldn't be aftermarket solutions to not do so.

My point was just because you can bolt something on doesn't mean you can safely or effectively use it.

IH resold CCC built machines from 1981-1985. During that time they offered a Cat 0 on those machines. They offered a Cat 0 on the 482, 582, 682, 782 and 982s over serial number 720000, and they offered the cat 0 from day 1 on IH built 982s.

[mhbtsc]

Originally Posted by Gompers

It's the other way around. MTD's rear end wasn't designed to use the IH lift. And that's why they didn't offer it. I do know that you risk pulling out bolts. Otherwise there wouldn't be aftermarket solutions to not do so.

They didn't offer it because it was obsolete. Not because they couldn't figure out how to make it work. I mean....surely MTD had the resources to add ears or redesign a lower bracket to directly bolt to the aluminum rear.

Originally Posted by Gompers

My point was just because you can bolt something on doesn't mean you can safely or effectively use it.

And it is a moot point.... as I stated, but spelled correctly this time.

Originally Posted by Gompers

IH resold CCC built machines from 1981-1985. During that time they offered a Cat 0 on those machines. They offered a Cat 0 on the 482, 582, 682, 782 and 982s over serial number 720000, and they offered the cat 0 from day 1 on IH built 982s.

No, MTD sold IH built machines.

1981 to 1985 CCC built and sold all the tractors. IH sold to the line to MTD in 1981. (If you study it, it actually was before 81, just not announced.)

The Cat 0 was NEVER offered on a CI rear end machine. Serial number 720,000 and above was an ALUMINUM rear!!!

Wow. Just wow.


Nobody is going to think any less of you if you just let this go. You don't know enough to debate this, and your just digging your hole deeper buddy.

[Gompers]

Originally Posted by mhbtsc

They didn't offer it because it was obsolete. Not because they couldn't figure out how to make it work. I mean....surely MTD had the resources to add ears or redesign a lower bracket to directly bolt to the aluminum rear.




And it is a moot point.... as I stated, but spelled correctly this time.




No, MTD sold IH built machines.

1981 to 1985 CCC built and sold all the tractors. IH sold to the line to MTD in 1981. (If you study it, it actually was before 81, just not announced.)

The Cat 0 was NEVER offered on a CI rear end machine. Serial number 720,000 and above was an ALUMINUM rear!!!

Wow. Just wow.


Nobody is going to think any less of you if you just let this go. You don't know enough to debate this, and your just digging your hole deeper buddy.

That's right. They didn't offer it because they didn't need it to work. And they didn't design their new rear end to use it. And that's why, while it will technically fit, you probably shouldn't use it without modification.

MTD never sold IH built machines at any point. CCC was a fully owned subsidary of MTD that was formed with the closure of a deal in February of 1981. In April of 1981, the last machines rolled off the Louisvile IH assembly line and residual parts and tooling were moved to the CCC factory in Brownsville, TN where the first MTD built cub cadet (a 482) rolled of the assembly line in November of 1981. From that point until 1985, IH bought CCC (MTD) built cub cadets and then resold them to their dealer network. The castings for the first 20,000 of those were cast iron and came from existing stock or the Louisville plant. MTD designed their own rear end and cast it from aluminum to mitigate potential environmental issues and also to end their reliance on IH for the parts.

When they put that into production, they only offered a cat 0 3 point hitch because that was the only rear lift they designed to work with their new rear end.

IH sold a cat 0 3 point on the 982 which had a cast iron rear end starting in 1979, before they sold to MTD.

Please go back to ECC, Jon. There are forum rules against having more than one account.

[mhbtsc]

Originally Posted by Gompers

while it will technically fit, you probably shouldn't use it without modification.

If you think so...

Originally Posted by Gompers

MTD never sold IH built machines at any point. CCC was a fully owned subsidary of MTD that was formed with the closure of a deal in February of 1981. In April of 1981, the last machines rolled off the Louisvile IH assembly line and residual parts and tooling were moved to the CCC factory in Brownsville, TN where the first MTD built cub cadet (a 482) rolled of the assembly line in November of 1981. From that point until 1985, IH bought CCC (MTD) built cub cadets and then resold them to their dealer network. The castings for the first 20,000 of those were cast iron and came from existing stock or the Louisville plant. MTD designed their own rear end and cast it from aluminum to mitigate potential environmental issues and also to end their reliance on IH for the parts.

You can read books!! So you surely understand that the machines MTD were building were IH built machines, just under the new ownership of MTD. With the exception of the aluminum rears and some minor wiring, MTD was selling IH machines.

Originally Posted by Gompers

When they put that into production, they only offered a cat 0 3 point hitch because that was the only rear lift they designed to work with their new rear end.

Again... you are not quite getting it.

Originally Posted by Gompers

IH sold a cat 0 3 point on the 982 which had a cast iron rear end starting in 1979, before they sold to MTD.

That is a completely different hitch. Not the same discussion.

Originally Posted by Gompers

Please go back to ECC, Jon. There are forum rules against having more than one account.

I don't know who Jon is. My name is Burt.

But I've read a lot of your posts since joining up here..... and I'm not all that impressed. That's why I decided to post in this thread. Couldn't take the misinformation. Seen a lot of guys like you on other forums. Loud, but not very knowledgeable. It's not fair to those you are "helping".

I'm tired. Done my due diligence here.