Cub Cadet 129 mower will not disengage

[boxccc]

Well I finally got down and dirty and dismantled the front PTO mechanism to include the clutch assembly and also flywheel pulley /w clutch plate.
Findings:
1. Key way and key for flywheel pulley torn up and key way slot damaged as well some scoring to the main drive shaft.
2. The locking collar for the PTO bearing was missing. (As I disassemble anything the pieces or parts immediately go from hand to the the zip lock bag. I am 81 and beginning to forget now and them but still can't answer .
3. The PTO clutch appeared intact except for a few missing teeth of the front friction disc.
4. The center thrust button and the PTO button were totally worn.

Initial response.
1.I got the rebuild kit and replaced the friction disc, the front thrust button and the PTO button as well as got a locking collar for the manual PTO bearing. Found a very instructive "you tube" for detailed instructions to rebuild the PTO clutch.
2. I touched up the shaft and key way slot and replaced the key and reattached the flywheel pulley to the shaft, etc.
3. I then installed the locking collar and manual PTO bearing and locked them together, per given instructions, making sure that the bearing front was flush to the drive shaft end.
4. The properly adjusted PTO clutch was then slid over the locking collar/PTO bearing the the 3 long set screws set in followed by the 3 short er locking screws.
5. The PTO engagement arm was properly adjusted with recommended clearances at the center thrust button etc.

The tractor started up and the mower deck was disengaged. A few engage/disengage test were all successful. I then took the mower for a short grass cutting, low grass at best 100 feet then returned to barn but now the mower would not disengage.

In the back of my mind I thought fly wheel pulley "wobbled on the shaft before I tighten the set screws. I dismantled the entire set up and found the pulley had loosened. Before doing this, I tried to start the tractor but could not get enough RPM to fire up. I also made note that the sprocket teeth seemed wedged in the "cookie cutter" clutch drive plate.

Fortunately, I have a 124 that i am using for parts and took off the flywheel pulley which seemed not to wobble on the drive shaft. I have completely reassembled and readjusted and tried again. But it still will not disengage.

Question:When installing the PTO clutch assembly over the locking collar/PTO bearing, do the "sprocket teeth" of the front friction disc have to be pressed all the way back . In other words do the set screw opening have to be set back deep enouch to aligh directly with the clutch drive plate opening or can the be set forward enouch so that the friction disk can be moved independently of the drive shaft in the disengaged position?

Whew...I will throw in a few picture if it will help.

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by boxccc

Question:When installing the PTO clutch assembly over the locking collar/PTO bearing, do the "sprocket teeth" of the front friction disc have to be pressed all the way back . In other words do the set screw opening have to be set back deep enouch to aligh directly with the clutch drive plate opening or can the be set forward enouch so that the friction disk can be moved independently of the drive shaft in the disengaged position?

Whew...I will throw in a few picture if it will help.

The friction disk goes into the basket pulley. How far, isn't really relevant. It needs to be back far enough for the disk to engage, but not so far back that the notches for the set screws will let you get an allen wrench in them. If it is too far back on the crank, the clutch spring will contact the crank before it disengages. As long as you put the bearing on flush, the PTO can only go so far back on. (It hits the snap ring in the drive hub.) So..... did you lock the bearing with the lock collar properly? Spun locked it to the bearing with a hammer and punch before locking the set screw? If you did, and then adjusted the PTO and it worked, I'm not sure what you did wrong. The basket pulley shouldn't really affect it... I'm not sure it can work it's way close enough to the PTO to cause an issue.

No, your pictures of the rebuild don't really help with the issue you are having now. Pics of what you are seeing now would be helpful though.

[sawdustdad]

The friction disk (with the teeth on it) should sit fully inside the starter pulley/clutch basket so the set screws in the PTO align with the holes in the basket. (what you are calling the cookie cutter I think).

A couple thoughts for a PTO that worked but stopped working after a few minutes.

PTO adjustment screws moved--did you use jam nuts on the back and tighten them fully. Like really tight. So they don't come loose.

PTO fiber button worn. Sometimes the button wears in a bit and needs to be readjusted using the turnbuckle on the PTO actuator rod. Tighten it up a tad so the PTO disengages.

This is what it is supposed to look like.

[ironman]

Originally Posted by boxccc

Question:When installing the PTO clutch assembly over the locking collar/PTO bearing, do the "sprocket teeth" of the front friction disc have to be pressed all the way back . In other words do the set screw opening have to be set back deep enouch to aligh directly with the clutch drive plate opening or can the be set forward enouch so that the friction disk can be moved independently of the drive shaft in the disengaged position?

From the manual.....
"Be sure the complete thickness of the disk is under the drive pulley cup."
I would say from flush to 3/16" back is the normal window.
Like Jon said you can only put the PTO assembly on so far. However you should have some room to move the "cookie cutter" forward or back to get it right.

What is your gap between the pto thrust button and the button on the release arm. It should be about business card thickness when the lever is forward (engaged). And when adjusted don't forget to lock the turnbuckle in place.

[boxccc]

to: J-Me ch, Sawdust dad, Iron man
Sorry, I could not find icons for quick reply and I do thank you for your responses. I did do pretty much all the things you had pointed out. I went back today and took pictures of each step that I took and again dissembled the front PTO mechanism. I will number 1 thru 6 and hope the attachments coincide with the information.

1. This is the position of the friction disk in relation to the basket pulley as I had positioned the PTO clutch as far back as it would allow and this is the friction disk after a short run and it would not disengage.
2. After removal of the PTO clutch showing the position of the locking collar and the bearing. Note the gap between it and the basket pulley.( Is this acceptable?)All set screws were very tight and not loose.
4. I noted that the basket pulley was set back to show it was not totally aligned with the starter pulley.
5. I then moved the basket pulley forward in proper alignment to the starter pulley and noted there was essentially no gap between the pulley and the locking collar. Also note the bearing is flush to the end of the drive shaft.
6. The Clutch assembly has been reinstalled and note the set screw opening are in alignment with the aperture of the basket pulley.
7. After a short run of the engine note that the friction disk sprockets (teeth) and the set screw aperture has moved several degrees. Also no matter what gap to the release arm, it will not disengage.

Also note that the PTO thrust button as well as the release arm button are brand new.

Your thoughts and suggestions are humbly requested.
Thank You

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by boxccc

4. I noted that the basket pulley was set back to show it was not totally aligned with the starter pulley.
5. I then moved the basket pulley forward in proper alignment to the starter pulley and noted there was essentially no gap between the pulley and the locking collar. Also note the bearing is flush to the end of the drive shaft.

The basket pulley moving can be a battle. A new key helps, as does replacing the set screws. Find set screws with "teeth" on the end. They help a lot. As does some blue loc-tite on the set screws. As long as the belt runs true on the S/G to the basket pulley, the position of the pulley is correct.

Originally Posted by boxccc

6. The Clutch assembly has been reinstalled and note the set screw opening are in alignment with the aperture of the basket pulley.
7. After a short run of the engine note that the friction disk sprockets (teeth) and the set screw aperture has moved several degrees. Also no matter what gap to the release arm, it will not disengage.

After you run the clutch, the set screws will not line up with the access holes in the basket. This is normal operation. The two pulleys are designed to spin separate from each other. Think about it.... when the PTO is off, the basket pulley still spins. The holes will not likely end up together again except by sheer chance.

Originally Posted by boxccc

Also note that the PTO thrust button as well as the release arm button are brand new.

Your thoughts and suggestions are humbly requested.
Thank You

Two questions:

1.) Did the kit come with the tool for setting the release fingers? Did you use it?
2.) Did you install the small springs on the long screws that go through the release arms?

Everything looks to be in order. Either the clutch itself is set too tight, or you do not have the clutch control rod length adjusted correctly.

One more thing... that set screw in the bearing lock collar is way too long. It should be flush when tightened. You did spin lock the locking collar to the bearing, and did you spin in the same direction of shaft rotation? It is possible that the PTO is coming into contact with the set screw before bottoming out on the bearing. It really needs a shorter set screw.

[boxccc]

J-Mech:
Duhhhh....
1. As I got into bed last night I suddenly woke up that I had the erroneous assumption that the fiber disk sprockets do not move away from the basket pulley to disengage but this to occur internal to the PTO c.clutch.

Reply to your questions:
1. Where can I find set screws with teeth on their ends and yes I was wondering if the blue loc-tit could be used?
2. Yes the "kit" with the small tool help set up the release fingeers and yes I did use it multiple times...
3. Yes the 3 springs that fit internal thru which the long screws were used but not replaced with new ones since none came with the "kit".
4. There were 2 new release fingers sort of triangular in shape as well as 1 anti-rattle clip which were utilized.
5. The bearing lock collar was locked by a "smart wack" using a small punch striking the small hole on the collar in a counter clock wise direction. I tested by releasing the collar by striking in the opposite direction. this all done while collar and bearing in proper position on the drive shaft .

New Question:
1. Is there any link which shows how this PTO clutch works?

Thanks again...I'll keep it up this I get this thing to work.

[ol'George]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

The basket pulley moving can be a battle. A new key helps, as does replacing the set screws. Find set screws with "teeth" on the end. They help a lot. As does some blue loc-tite on the set screws. As long as the belt runs true on the S/G to the basket pulley, the position of the pulley is correct.




After you run the clutch, the set screws will not line up with the access holes in the basket. This is normal operation. The two pulleys are designed to spin separate from each other. Think about it.... when the PTO is off, the basket pulley still spins. The holes will not likely end up together again except by sheer chance.




Two questions:

1.) Did the kit come with the tool for setting the release fingers? Did you use it?
2.) Did you install the small springs on the long screws that go through the release arms?

Everything looks to be in order. Either the clutch itself is set too tight, or you do not have the clutch control rod length adjusted correctly.

One more thing... that set screw in the bearing lock collar is way too long. It should be flush when tightened. You did spin lock the locking collar to the bearing, and did you spin in the same direction of shaft rotation? It is possible that the PTO is coming into contact with the set screw before bottoming out on the bearing. It really needs a shorter set screw.

To add to long setscrew issue as Jon says,
An allen head type setscrew needs to be flush or just a tad below the hole it is threaded into.
Being hardened, over tightening without support of the bore hole/thread, will split the hex socket pocket, then you are screwed as removing it becomes a "drill it out" situation.
Or if it don't split tightning, it prolly will years & rust down the road when trying removal.

[sawdustdad]

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9



this may help. When the fiber button pushes the center of the PTO "IN", it releases the front PTO pulley from the friction disk that continues to turn with the basket pulley. The engine continues to turn, the basket pulley spins with it, as does the friction disk. The front pulley just stays stationary, with the bearing inside it spinning with the engine.

Hey, one thing. With no implement (and belt) attached to the PTO pulley, it may continue to spin with the engine, even disengaged. The way to tell if it disengages is, with the engine OFF, pull the PTO handle, disengaging the PTO, and then, with a firm grip, attempt to turn the front pulley. It should move with some effort (due to pressure from fiber button) without moving the basket pulley.

Put a mower deck on it, with a belt on the PTO, and the resistance from the deck will stop the pulley with the engine running.

Without an implement, the PTO may not look like it's disengaging.

[boxccc]

Dear Sawdust dad, ol'George, J Mech, Ironman:

Gentlemen: I wish to inform you that I followed your recommendations explicitly and was finally able to get the front PTO to properly engage and disengage properly. Both my self as well as the original owner of this particular machine could not comprehend that by pushing the arm against the center thrust button disengaged the the friction disk . We both understand how this remarkable piece of machinery works.

Again thank you for your assistance and reply's.

DocRocy...RVN Vet 69-70. Remember and Pray for the 58K kids who came home in Boxes.