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  #11  
Old 03-12-2018, 08:46 PM
taylorjm taylorjm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Littrell View Post
Taylorjim, I plan to do 3/4 to a manifold with 3/4 to the hot water heater. 1/2 out to everything else.

One of the big reasons for the tankless and direct vent is to gain some room where the hot water heater is and eliminate the flue pipe running through a bedroom I built in the basement. We are going to add a half bathroom in the room that houses the heat/ac and hot water heater. I live in a old small house.

But, I do want to make sure I do everything right.


Randy
Yup, we did the same thing. We had an attic converted to a bedroom and it had the old metal flue pipe from the furnace and hot water tank. Furnace was replace and vented out pvc, so went with a 50gal power vent tank water heater and vented that out through the side of the house to eliminate the flue vent.
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  #12  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:54 PM
J-Mech J-Mech is offline
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You need to run 3/4 out of the water heater, then reduce just before going to each faucet. So, if the plumbing is under, reduce just before comING up through the floor. If you don't, you won't have enough flow. Maybe you meant that....
I'd feed the water heater with whatever size comes into the house. If it's 1", feed it with 1".
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  #13  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:43 PM
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Taylorjm, every tankless I've ever seen has a combustion blower and every gas/propane furnace does as well. You will never get the efficiency without it. I think the delay to fire is about 1/2 second and you will never notice it. I can run my kitchen faucet at any temperature from warm to scalding hot and the unit fires every time. Why keep 40 to 60 gallons of water hot all day long when it is not needed. I also moved mine from a hall closet to under my crawl space where it is out of site.

I still tell my wife every time she is washing dishes to try and keep from turning the hot water on and off every time she rinses a dish. I'm not sure if it hurts anything but it cycles on and off every time she rinses.
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  #14  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:00 PM
Randy Littrell Randy Littrell is offline
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Yes J-mech, I am pretty sure I have 3/4" coming in but I was planning on 1/2" out of the manifold. My 3/4 goes down to 1/2 now in the main run and I have plenty of flow and pressure. My current lines are a combination of black pipe and galvenized. My house is from 1920 and the part I have already replaced with pex had about a pencil size running in the middle of the pipe.



Also, while I have your guys ear. I need to do an expansion tank and not sure where in the line that should go.



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  #15  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:22 PM
J-Mech J-Mech is offline
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Expansion tank can go anywhere.

Randy, I'm telling you, if you run out of a tankless heater with 1/2" you won't have enough flow. You need to run like I said. Sure, you think you have good flow now because a tank water heater doesn’t need flow to give you hot water. Tankless requires flow to operate the burner. Besides, I wouldn't even recommend running 1/2" out of a tank either, but people do. Then they set it up really hot, because of the restriction.
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  #16  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:14 AM
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Rescue11 Rescue11 is offline
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1/2" pex will just about fit inside 1/2" galvanized btw...

Truth be told 3/4" pex has only slightly larger ID than 1/2" galv. for a few reasons. First being that the I.D. of 1/2" galv is larger than 1/2". Its actually closer to 5/8" but not quite. The OD of 1/2" hard drawn l,m, and k copper, cpvc AND PEX is 5/8".

SECOND...Cross linked polyethylene is pretty robust, however it needs more sidewall meat for expansion and general durability than copper does. Because pex was put in the CTS family for easy compatability with hard drawn copper tubing and cpvc, it has to maintain the o.d. to work with various fittings such as compression and shark bite. So.... thicker sidewall + same out side diameter = reduced i.d. for pex tubing.

When sizing, depending on elevation and f.u. 3/4" is used at very minimum for the main. Most of the time we use 1". 1/2" definitely has a place, just use enough sense to know what/where it is.

Edit, never understood the logic behind a hot water heater. I mean, why buy a water heater to heat already hot water? I myself have only seen regular old water heaters meant for heating "cold" water, but people always talk about these hot water heaters and I have never seen one. Its a mystery to me
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  #17  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:56 AM
taylorjm taylorjm is offline
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J-mech and Rescue are spot on about the 1/2" pex. By the time you put a fitting INSIDE the pex. your really restricted. Compared to 1/2 copper that doesn't have a fitting inside it. If you don't have enough flow, the burner won't kick on.

Oak, you are talking about a combustion blower on a furnace, those are usually on the 80% efficient ones. When you get to the 90% condensing and use pvc pipe as exhaust, there's an exhaust blower that has to run longer than 1/2 second before the burners kick on. A furnace that exhausts with pvc will usually have a 20-30 sec purge before the burners kick on because that's required to verify enough venting to not push carbon monoxide back into the house. Now figure, this tankless is going to consume about 3-4x as much as your furnace, and you don't want that to not vent properly, so the exhaust blower has to run at least a few seconds before the burners kick in. How many seconds? I honestly don't know. But I'd worry why my furnace running at 60,000btu needs a 20 second purge, and your going to run a 200,000btu tankless heater that would only need 1 second purge. I'd guess it's going to need at least 10 seconds, but again, I am not positive. Maybe they are different technology now, could be, I don't know, but I'd want to check that before buying one.

Now, as far as being efficient. You really need to look long and hard at this one. People think if they aren't storing hot water, they are saving money. There's tons of studies out there that say you need at least 10 years to break even with a tankless because of the higher up front cost. That's assuming you don't have to repair the tankless. If you need to vent with pvc, like I did, a tank style water heater will run you about $800-900. A high end tankless could run double that. So, you need to make up about a $900 upfront cost in gas savings. Many people have had tankless installed and said their bill didn't change. So your going from running 40,000btu tank style, keeping water warm all the time, to a 200,000btu tankless that runs when you need it. I guess it just depends how much water you use, how soon you will recoup the cost. All I know is when those burners kick on, and you hear the whooooosh of all that gas being burned....ya gotta wonder how much it's going to save you! All depends on your situation.
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  #18  
Old 03-13-2018, 11:00 AM
taylorjm taylorjm is offline
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Also you mentioned you have 3/4" water coming in to the house. That's 3/4" either copper or galvanized, which is much larger and has much better flow rate than 3/4" pex. Like rescue said, I'd use 1" pex for the mains if you have 3/4" coming in now.
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  #19  
Old 03-13-2018, 03:10 PM
Randy Littrell Randy Littrell is offline
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Ok, now its clicking guys. I did not realize the size difference. Will do 1" in and maybe out to the faucets as well.

This is why I asked here, I knew we had some pretty fart smellers!



Thanks guys!





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  #20  
Old 03-13-2018, 06:41 PM
dodge trucker dodge trucker is offline
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I too have been wondering about these things, as within my utility room things are cramped, as it is now, I have to pull the hot water tank to access the furnace.... my A coil clogged up (result of owning Black Labs that shed like crazy for so long, nother story) and I had to pull it at 3AM when it was -10*F outside earlier this winter, it is a PITA to drain 40 gallons of hot water, un-plumb and re-plumb it back in besides dragging it out of the way, and back into place.... a tankless would clear up floor space for me around the furnace.... maybe I could have kept up on keeping things clean better,

as it stands right now, I have to pull the hot water tank again, during that few weeks we usually have where we don't need either heat or AC in late spring so that I can reinstall that A-coil so that I can have AC this summer.....
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