1450 Loader Questions

[hyperlightboards48]

Hi All, New to the forum, I just picked up a new to me 1450 with a homemade loader.

The loader is ran off the rear end and seems to lack power it’ll lift max about 200 lbs very slowly. I am assuming this should be able to lift more and is probably due to the fact it doesn’t have its own hydro pump. Moves snow great as is but come summer I have some gravel I want to move and I don’t think it’ll be up for the task. Upon research on the forum I’ve decided I need a separate pump, hoping to run this pump off the electric pto up front to be able to disengage for winter starting. https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...1998_200641998.

Three questions:
1)Does this pump look right? from the research I have done seems like I need about a 4gpm pump.

2)I couldn’t find much information about reservoir size, are there any recommendations? I know a lot of people use the loader arm.

3)How do I bleed the current system, it seems like my left lifting cylinder has some air in it, seems to lag the right one by about a half inch, making my bucket un even.


Hopefully I’ll figure out how to get a couple photos loaded

[riesedesperado6170]

I believe one I got 4-8 gpm pump. At 1800 RPM it's 4 gpm and 8 gpm 3600 RPM, but I have to check. at lease gal. I making tanks so I can have a 4-5 gal. capacity. But, I'm building back hoe.

Jeremy

[J-Mech]

You say "ran off the rear", I assume you mean off the hydrostat??
The internal pump is small, but is large enough to operate a loader. If the system seems weak, check the charge pump output pressure and correct as necessary. It's in the chassis service manual.

If you add a pump, you will have to add a reservoir. Plus all that work. I'd just fix the charge pump pressure and see how it works.


If you think one cylinder has air in it, all you do to remove it is do a couple complete cycles of the cylinder. Full up to full down. Air can make it "lag" behind, but I doubt that is the issue. A "T" hydraulic system will split the load equally between the two cylinders. If one is behind the other, it's likely that the builder didn't get the frame made the same on both sides.

But, if you want to make a mount, and reservoir, do all that plumbing.... be my guest. You may find you have the same issues still....

[sparky40]

I also have a 1450 with a Johnson loader on it. When I got it, it was also run off the ported pump. I added a separate hydraulic pump, ( and power steering) the ported pump just does not have enough power for the loader for what you want to do. After changing mine to a dedicated pump it made a world of difference. Here is the pump I used https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...9708_200329708
If you are going to run it off a pulley, make sure the pump is rated for a side load. I ran mine off the front PTO. Hope this helps

[hyperlightboards48]

I was able to run the pressure tests tonight. Running with no load spec is 200psi max, I was just shy of 200psi. With load the spec is 500-625psi i hovered right around 600psi. I did another test with 200lbs in the bucket and watched the gauge to see if it dropped off but it stayed consistent at 600psi.

The comment about 1000lbs off the rear end I think falls inline with what the loader is currently lifting considering the weight of the loader + the 200lb load and considering the geometry of the front lift compared to the rear lift seems to make some sense maybe?? :big think:

Nonetheless, I think I would like a little more lift power out of the loader and probably will end up putting a dedicated pump on it, not necessarily to carry the loads around but I think it would just help for breaking items free and digging capabilities. Currently when I press down with the loader it struggles to get the wheels off the ground and put the weight into the blade for scraping.

Originally Posted by sparky40

I also have a 1450 with a Johnson loader on it. When I got it, it was also run off the ported pump. I added a separate hydraulic pump, ( and power steering) the ported pump just does not have enough power for the loader for what you want to do. After changing mine to a dedicated pump it made a world of difference. Here is the pump I used https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...9708_200329708
If you are going to run it off a pulley, make sure the pump is rated for a side load. I ran mine off the front PTO. Hope this helps

Does the Johnson loader have a reservoir in the loader post, or what did you end up doing for a reservoir? Thanks for the link, I like the fact that it has multiple GPM outputs. Didn't know that was a thing (again this is all new to me)

Did you couple directly to the front end, if so did you notice any more resistance starting?

[J-Mech]

Before you go making anything else, I have questions:

1.)How is the loader valve tied into the system? Is there still a hydraulic lift on the tractor? Or is the loader the only valve?

2.) Does the loader valve also have a relief valve. I'm betting it does. Most add on valves do.


Here's some more info:
IH had the implement relief set at 600 PSI for the GT's because that's all they needed for their hydraulic system. The pump can handle much more. Shim the relief valve to 1000 PSI. The SGT's used the same pump, but were set at 900 PSI. The pump will handle at least 1000 PSI safely without issue. It would probably handle 1500, but I don't think you need that much for a loader.

On another note, the PO who built the loader did a nice job, but the bucket is really far forward. If you wanted to help it out a lot, you could re-engineer it. But that may be more work than you want.

On another, another note, loaders on GT's are not really that useful. The JD guys who have loaders on their tractors are knows the really load them down to the point of stupid in my opinion. But, their GT's were designed to have an OEM loader on them too, so they are made a bit better. CC's were not designed with a loader in mind.

[Rescue11]

Originally Posted by hyperlightboards48

I was able to run the pressure tests tonight. Running with no load spec is 200psi max, I was just shy of 200psi. With load the spec is 500-625psi i hovered right around 600psi. I did another test with 200lbs in the bucket and watched the gauge to see if it dropped off but it stayed consistent at 600psi.

The comment about 1000lbs off the rear end I think falls inline with what the loader is currently lifting considering the weight of the loader + the 200lb load and considering the geometry of the front lift compared to the rear lift seems to make some sense maybe??

Well, you are in range with factory setting.

Yes, geometry, cylinder bore and stroke, and hydraulic pressure all effect the lifting ability. Cylinder angle can drastically effect your ability one way or another. Same with pressure and surface area (bore) respectively.


Your loader seems to be modeled after a loader built for G/T's. Since you are trying to run the attachment at less than half of the psi typically supplied to these units by means of a aux gear pump, you will only have less than half of the results. This is known now from your test results.

You can shem the relief to get more pressure. My 1864 runs 800-850 psig or 864.92psia

However, this can shorten the life of the charge pump if you are constantly working at relief pressure. Have been told by a very smart dude once that 1000 psig is attainable, but the life can severely shorten particularly if you are constantly loading the piss out of the hydraulic system.

Your going to need larger bore cylinders to continue using the hydro pump, or use a gear pump and do all the plumbing.

(Edit: I agree with everything Jmech said, but the pressure seems a lil high!)

[hyperlightboards48]

First of all thank you all for the responses and input!

Originally Posted by J-Mech

You say "ran off the rear", I assume you mean off the hydrostat??

Yes sorry, still learning the terms and the workings of everything, thank you for the clarification.

Originally Posted by J-Mech

The internal pump is small, but is large enough to operate a loader. If the system seems weak, check the charge pump output pressure and correct as necessary. It's in the chassis service manual.

If you add a pump, you will have to add a reservoir. Plus all that work. I'd just fix the charge pump pressure and see how it works.

Interesting, I've seen people stating both- existing hydro will work and other saying it isn't sufficient. Ideally I would be able utilize the existing pump. and I would like to eliminate other issues along the way. I have been reading through the chassis manual (thanks for pointing me in this direction) and I will pick up a gauge and a 1/8th adapter and test what I have coming out of it now

Originally Posted by J-Mech

If you think one cylinder has air in it, all you do to remove it is do a couple complete cycles of the cylinder. Full up to full down. Air can make it "lag" behind, but I doubt that is the issue. A "T" hydraulic system will split the load equally between the two cylinders. If one is behind the other, it's likely that the builder didn't get the frame made the same on both sides.

That was my initial thought as well, I did some rough measurements down to about an 1/8th inch and everything seems equal from side to side and level. When I take measurements of the ram/pistons (sorry don't know the right term) the right one is always ahead by about a half inch that is until it reaches the top then the left one catches up and everything then becomes level.

[hyperlightboards48]

Originally Posted by finsruskw

Speaking of frames,..... I'd keep a close eye on welds at the bottom of that channel iron upright where it joins the cross member on each side for cracks. With no forward support to the frame of the tractor, it looks to be a potential weak spot IMHO.

Just how is that cross member, looks to be a 6" channel from where I sit, mounted to the frame?? I am guessing a few bolts??
I am no engineer but I'd take a close look before you load it up too much

Is this a new build from the PO??? Looks too clean to have been used much.
Be careful!!

It’s tricky to see here is another pic of the support.

I bought the tractor from a guy who bought it at an auction non-running. He fixed the spark issues and decided he wanted more lift capacity and sold it to me.

[hyperlightboards48]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

A "T" hydraulic system will split the load equally between the two cylinders....

Does it matter how the T is hooked up, as in where the supply line goes in and which ones go out? The way this T is hooked up makes sense from a space perspective. But not sure if the T’s are in any way directional. In my picture my finger is on the supply coming from the valve. The 90 goes to the right cylinder and the straight goes to the left cylinder.