Drive Line Clutch question

[dodge trucker]

oh; and I did have to Heli coil the hole for that gov gear retainer pin.... the threads on the pin I found looked like new, but the threads in the block were smooth, almost as if they never threaded the hole though we all know better than that.

[J-Mech]

I'm still skeptical about the bore. Do this. Have them run a rigid hone through it until it's round, then check the bore again. If the clearance is too loose, then you don't pay for the hone job.

Also, the head is aluminum, the block is cast... the head most generally takes all the wear. I have in the past, ran my glass plane on the top of a block that looked like it wasn't flat. It was maybe .0015" off. Took only a few min with the glass plane to get it flat. It did clean the deck nice, but wasn't really necessary.

I'd go in there and make them show you that the deck isn't flat. That or get a second opinion.


So, was the governor gear out? Still not really understanding why you tore it down...
That damage to the top of the piston is normal after hours and hours of run time. It's also an indication that it was ran too lean. I always run my Kohlers a little fat. Keeps them cool... and saves internals. Plus, I don't believe in global warming.

[dodge trucker]

yeah the governor arm was wedged by the gear that was halfway off its post.... so I had to investigate within to make sure it did not grenade upon startup, if I had tried to start it initially. and to put it back together right.
I have enough leftover gaskets from past jobs, I had everything here I need to pull down and investigate....
and yeah, I plan to resurface the head (I still have it here, have done those before) I have already glass beaded that. Deposits were what I'd consider normal, I have definitely seen worse. This wasn't my 1st trip into a Kohler K series. but it ws my 1st experience with this machine shop, and my 1st time hearing the results that I did upon a machine shop's inspection.
on the piston, once I saw that top land, I was not happy to see that but was glad I caught it now rather than to have to take it down again....
and the burnt exhaust valve too....
The fins were totally and completely packed solid with what looked like wheat or hay and pussy willow seeds.... The machine shop said they didn't think it had a whole lot of hours, but to me it looked like those hours it did have were put on it "hard".
as far as how I run them I run them where the carb is where it wants to be, to run its best, good power, no hestitation when revved or put under load for the machine that it happens to be on/// not like I have a exhaust scope to measure rich/lean haha.... judging by reading the plug I would say they usually end up "just right" maybe slightly rich when I get them where they want to be.

[sawdustdad]

I don't know if this is a common outcome, but the one time a shop (Case/IH dealer) told me all I needed was a piston and rings, and I paid them $800 to rebuild the engine, it lasted less than two years cutting an acre of grass---maybe 50 hours of run time--before it began to blow oil out the breather and it developed a bad knock (piston slap). The oil turned silver from the aluminum wear metal.

Ever since that experience, I've been rebuilding the engines myself, and always having the local NAPA shop bore the cylinder oversize, turn the crank and do the valve seats.

I've had good results with the ebay kits (bat4kids is the vendor).

I do have one tractor that I mic'd the cylinder myself and put new std rings and reused the existing piston--which had no apparent wear. I have no idea how long that will last, but it doesn't get run much, as it's a garage queen at this point. I would never do that on a working tractor.

[dodge trucker]

yes bakt 4 kids is who I got my kit from, though I got an OEM Kohler stellite exhaust valve from another seller for this build (intake was able to be resurfaced with enough margin left on the valve,to be OK)
I had gotten a kit from bakt 4 kids for a K181 about 8-10 years ago because it was cheap... I had an OEM piston and rings here already and when the kit got here I compared OEM to what he'd sent me and decided that what he sent me looked like junk and returned it.... the piston was in an otherwise unmarked white box with a small gold sticker that said "made in China" and a blue number that looked like a library stamp, no name, no nothing/ I figured that if they weren't proud enough to at least put their name to their product it probably wasn't worth anything/ what he sent me this time at least "looks" better than what I remember of that 8hp kit of some years ago.
that last time, he took the kit back and refunded me with no questions asked....
but I cannot see paying $154 just for ONE piston, when I can buy a whole set of 8 for my truck for that.... so I am going to try one of those kits I guess... I have never heard of the name of the spark plug that he sent me, for sure... looks like a (cheap) imported copy of a CJ-8.... K301s take an H-10.
the last time I did a Kohler (an M12--essentially the same as a K301) I used all OEM parts and wound up spending over $500 for that rebuild including the bore job and crank machine work, which is ridiculous. 0.010 under rod, 0.010 over piston and rings, gaskets, carb kit and a throttle shaft and bushing kit. And that OEM, factory Kohler piston I used in that rebuild? Made in India.... Disappointed for sure in that, for what it had cost! and I did all the disassembly and reassembly myself like always.

Regarding the bore/don't bore and cut crank/don't cut the crank debate, I am of the mindset that if it legitimately needs to be done, then yes-by all means, go ahead.because I hate re-do's!!! but if somehow the engine really doesn't, then DON'T do everything to it simply for the sake of gouging me, when it really doesn't need it...
Like I said before, this was my 1st experience with this shop, if it smokes or eats oil, and is down on power then that means that they really should have bored it, so I won't use them again.... if it means I gotta take a 1/2 day off work to drive to another machine shop and be there before closing time, and do it again when I get the call that my machine work is done to pick it up, then that is what I will do the next time.
There are none within reasonable distance of me, certainly no NAPA within at least a 60 mile raduis has machine work offered, and there are at least 10 NAPA's that I can think of off the top of my head, probably more. but of those 10, none offer machine work. so we shall see. the last parts store that offered in house machine shop service near me was a Bumper to Bumper/ and the last of their 3 machinists retired here this past Christmas so they closed the last local machine shop I had access to.

[J-Mech]

You really haven't been around parts suppliers much have you. Of coarse it came in a blank box with no name. That way Kevin (bakt4kids) can keep his supplier anonymous. All as has been done is repackaging. I don't know how many overhauls you have done, but I've probably done in the neighborhood of 200. (That's about 10 a year for 20 years. Lew likes to fact check my numbers, lol.) Unless they are OEM they seldom have any identification on them once out of the box. Of coarse the piston "looked" different. It was aftermarket. This is common.

One of the main suppliers I use for diesel engine rebuilds is a company out of Indiana. They have their own pistons made just for them. No identification marks on them, and they come in a blank box. I've put those kits in everything from tractors to trucks, to B series Cummins in Dodge pickups. THEY LAST. Quit worrying about how the parts look and just run them. Yes... they are going to look different.

As far as grinding/boring.... well, you seem convinced that standard is the way to go. You must be right, your a mechanic. Here's an interesting fact.... not many machine shops are staffed with experienced engine machinists.... or know anything about air cooled Kohlers. I'm very choosy when it comes to a machine shop... but then again, I usually only go to them with what I want done. I'm not usually looking for them to tell me what I need. Seems like so many engine machine shops these days are staffed with people who are inexperienced. Just like so many other places these days. Fact is, they just won't charge for, or pay, to have a good experienced engine machinist in place. Besides the fact that rebuilding an engine is becoming so uncommon, the lack of good shops are due to the fact that any good engine machinist opens his own shop and specializes. I don't know where in Illinois you are but Effingham Illinois has some really good shops. Vogul is in Effingham. But I digress. Just frustrates me that you don't seem to be listening to advice. But, it's your motor, your money and your time. Do as you see fit. I'd get a second opinion.

[finsruskw]

Just got a kit from the bat guy.
Lucky I had extra plate shims on hand from other builds because there were not enough shims in his set to get ANY end play.

both upper rings were marked "top" and I had to install the center ring "upside down" to get the bevel facing down. The rings came in a piece of cardboard that had been cut from an old brown box and wrapped w/tape. Geesh....

Oh well, maybe I'll jus paint the thing w/bedliner and be done w/it!!

[dodge trucker]

yeah I wondered about how the rings were packaged, mine came wrapped the same way. that last set, the one that i returned without using, was wrapped in cellophane much like that rack of $1.59/ 2-for-$3 candy on the end of the row in the grocery store..... no name, no ID numbers, nothing.

[ol'George]

Originally Posted by finsruskw

Just got a kit from the bat guy.
Lucky I had extra plate shims on hand from other builds because there were not enough shims in his set to get ANY end play.

both upper rings were marked "top" and I had to install the center ring "upside down" to get the bevel facing down. The rings came in a piece of cardboard that had been cut from an old brown box and wrapped w/tape. Geesh....

Oh well, maybe I'll jus paint the thing w/bedliner and be done w/it!!

Were your "top" marked rings "barrel" shaped or scraper?
Various engine and ring manufacturers specify different ring configurations.
Also some manufacturers differ in their beliefs as far as configuration, some use barrel shape in the top position and second position, other do not.
Some go with a barrel on top and a scraper in the second position.

Still others use a scraper design, only inverted, in the second position.
Some top rings are chrome others are chrome with moly in the center of the chrome surface,
others still are plain cast iron.

A tapered or scraper ring, induces a twist in the ring to promote sealing.
Hastings has a very good WWW or did, I have not been there for some years.
Rings with a dot on them are installed up or if they say top.
Usually if a ring is marked "top" or has a dot,it refers to the way it is installed on the piston, not what groove it goes in.
if rings are not marked they can go either way.
Again, their are exceptions.
There are a whole bunch of traditions and beliefs in ring configurations.
If they go to the extent to stamp "top" on a ring they want it installed with top up regardless to the bevel on the inner edge.

I like the bedliner idea, a coat of paint covers a multitude of sins
do put an extra coat on the fins, it will keep it nice and warm on cold days

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by ol'George

Were your "top" marked rings "barrel" shaped or scraper?
Various engine and ring manufacturers specify different ring configurations.
Also some manufacturers differ in their beliefs as far as configuration, some use barrel shape in the top position and second position, other do not.
Some go with a barrel on top and a scraper in the second position.

Still others use a scraper design, only inverted, in the second position.
Some top rings are chrome others are chrome with moly in the center of the chrome surface,
others still are plain cast iron.

A tapered or scraper ring, induces a twist in the ring to promote sealing.
Hastings has a very good WWW or did, I have not been there for some years.
Rings with a dot on them are installed up or if they say top.
Usually if a ring is marked "top" or has a dot,it refers to the way it is installed on the piston, not what groove it goes in.
if rings are not marked they can go either way.
Again, their are exceptions.
There are a whole bunch of traditions and beliefs in ring configurations.
If they go to the extent to stamp "top" on a ring they want it installed with top up regardless to the bevel on the inner edge.

I like the bedliner idea, a coat of paint covers a multitude of sins
do put an extra coat on the fins, it will keep it nice and warm on cold days

Finally. An answer from another experienced engine builder.