Problem with 149

[Merk]

Check out Kohler's F.A.Qs.
http://www.kohlerengines.com/maintenance/faqs.htm

The question on using any additives in oil and gas answers the use of sea foam:
Kohler does not recommend using additives or cleaners in the oil or fuel system. Air-cooled engines operate at higher temperatures than liquid-cooled automotive engines, and additives developed for automotive use may not perform properly at higher temperatures. Oil additives can prematurely break down, altering the properties of the oil and leading to extensive internal damage or failure. Fuel system cleaning additives have a tendency to separate and turn acidic, causing damage to fuel system components. However, a fuel stabilizer is recommended in the fuel during periods of non-use (one month or more) to retard fuel deterioration

sea foam is a additive.....and a poor one at that.

It sounds like a sticky valve or a carbon build up in the valve area.

[edw]

Dale I will have to agree with Koehler. I have seen several engines that have sat for a while that people use fuel stabilizer and seems to look like pond scum inside the carbs.I myself hardly ever use fuel stabilizers and dont run engines dry before storage.So far I have not had problems with fuel and the way engines run.I may have been lucky but one friend always uses fuel stabilizer and I have replaced several fuel lines on his small engines.I guess I go by the saying if it aint broke dont fix it.

[Merk]

Edw,
I use a fuel stablizer year round. The pond scum isn't from a fuel stablizer....most cases it's from the lack of a fuel stablizer and old gas. The fuel stablizer does not cause fuel lines to go bad. The additives that big oil put in their fuel and age is causing the majority of the problems.


Do you notice any vapors coming out the gas tank or gas can when you fill your gas tank on your Cub? That is the additive package leaving the fuel.

I went to a 30 day gas rule 6 years ago. Any fuel (2 and 4 cycle) in my storage containers is added to my Suburban's fuel tank. I will add a fuel stablizer before I fill my storage containers. Two good fuel stablizers are Sta-Bil and the one Briggs and Stratton sells. I try to buy enough fuel to last 30 for my small motors. I use a sealed container to store my fuel and keep them in a cool dry place. I buy fuel from a station that sells gas in volumes. I won't fill my storage containers or autos when the bulk delivery truck is delivering fuel. I haven't had any fuel problems since I went to the 30 day gas rule.

Before anyone blames ethanol you should read this:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=817

[Matt G.]

Originally Posted by Merk

Before anyone blames ethanol you should read this:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=817

If ethanol isn't bad, why are the general aviation and marine industries fighting to keep it out of the fuel produced for them? Both have done studies and found adverse effects on gaskets and seals in the fuel system. Gas never used to have a 30-day shelf life before they started putting ethanol in it.

[Merk]

by Matt G.
If ethanol isn't bad, why are the general aviation and marine industries fighting to keep it out of the fuel produced for them? Both have done studies and found adverse effects on gaskets and seals in the fuel system. Gas never used to have a 30-day shelf life before they started putting ethanol in it.

Looks like you answer part of your question. The question I have for the general aviation and marine industries is why didn't they use a better grade of gaskets and seals?

Todays gas (non ethanol gas) is not made for small motors. The quality isn't same as it was 5 years ago. I grew up pushing a Lawn Boy 2 cycle push mower that was used for triming. The grass usually didn't need mowed from mid July thru the first three weeks of August. The push mower didn't run right until fresh gas and oil was mix. This was 35 yers ago. Not sure when ethanol hit the market.....don't think it was that long.

[Matt G.]

Well, I don't know about the marine industry, but as a pilot, I can tell you that nearly any changes to an aircraft or engine from when it left the factory have to be FAA-approved. So every new type of seal, gasket, etc. would have to be vigorously tested, and all of that costs money. When most of today's general aviation fleet was designed in the '50s and '60s, there was no ethanol in gas, period. It's not cost-effective to make changes like this in the system...they've been trying to find an unleaded replacement for 100LL for like 20 years now. Turbocharged, high-performance, and antique radial engines all need the lead. Plus, because the gas with ethanol contains less energy, the engine makes less power, and that pretty much screws up all the performance documentation.

I suppose they could replace all the seal and gasket materials, but that won't do anything about the corrosion of other parts in the fuel system, or the most serious problem, the absorption of water that pools in the fuel tanks. That is probably the biggest issue with ethanol being put into avgas. It creates a dangerous situation by absorbing water that sinks to the bottom of the tanks.

BTW, 100LL doesn't have a limited shelf life like autogas does....properly stored, it is supposed to last 50 years or so.

[Merk]

by Matt G.
Plus, because the gas with ethanol contains less energy

Not sure about aircraft fuel...most competitors is racing and tractor pulling use an alcohol base fuel in their motors if they have a choice of what fuel to run. There was a driver in an IHRA funny car class that won the class title at least 4 times. He ran ethanol in his motor. I have more power when I use a 10 to 20% ethanol in my IH Cub Cadet 149. The gas with ethanol doesn't last as long as the non ethanol gas does. I expect that since the air-fuel ratio ethanol is 9 to 1 and gas is 14 to 1.

Aircraft have a stricter rules when it comes to the safety of the aircraft. Their fuel doesn't have the additives in it like the fuel we buy for our autos. It sounds like the aircraft group need to work/modify their fuel and storage systems some. Next time you add dry gas/gas line antifreeze to your fuel system look at what's in the bottle.....most have (at least the good ones) a form of alcohol in it. Question that I have is: Where is the moisture coming from poor storage/handling practice or the ethanol????

Bottom line is this country has to quit being dependent on other countries for our fuel source. We need to be making our own fuel. Brazil went a sugar base ethanol years ago. Corn base ethanol may or may not be the answer....time will tell.

I will be the first one to admit that I don't have all the answers. I'm still looking for them.

[Matt G.]

Originally Posted by Merk

Question that I have is: Where is the moisture coming from poor storage/handling practice or the ethanol????

Poor storage/handling practices? No. Ethanol itself? Yes. There's a LOT of piston-engine planes made out of metal with large fuel tanks in the wings. Condensation on the inside of the tanks is a problem even with avgas, and the water absorption of ethanol would make it worse. To prevent condensation, we usually fill the tanks as full as possible to eliminate air space and any chance for condensation to occur, but this is not always feasible or possible. Ethanol will exacerbate the problem by absorbing water, too. So any time the tanks aren't completely full, there'll be water being absorbed. Another thing, avgas is dyed to make it easy to spot contamination...I'm not sure how easily a mix of ethanol and gasoline can be dyed to do the same thing.

One other thing I forgot to mention...you know how the cars that can use E85 get worse gas mileage when it is used instead of straight gasoline? This would reduce the range of aircraft using ethanol, as well.

Sorry about completely derailing this thread....

[aagitch]

What octane do you guys use? Have you noticed a difference? What about MMO in the fuel?

[Merk]

by Matt G.
One other thing I forgot to mention...you know how the cars that can use E85 get worse gas mileage when it is used instead of straight gasoline? This would reduce the range of aircraft using ethanol, as well.

Matt
Please reread this from my last post:

by Merk
The gas with ethanol doesn't last as long as the non ethanol gas does. I expect that since the air-fuel ratio ethanol is 9 to 1 and gas is 14 to 1.

by Matt G.
To prevent condensation, we usually fill the tanks as full as possible to eliminate air space and any chance for condensation to occur, but this is not always feasible or possible. Ethanol will exacerbate the problem by absorbing water, too. So any time the tanks aren't completely full, there'll be water being absorbed. Another thing, avgas is dyed to make it easy to spot contamination...I'm not sure how easily a mix of ethanol and gasoline can be dyed to do the same thing.

You are eliminating the air space in the plane's fuel tank. Is the bulk tank-transport hauler being top off too? I've learned by trial and error that you need to look at fuel storage as well as the fuel tank on any internal combustion motor. I had one gent who purchase 100 gallons of gas every April. By mid June his lawn mower wasn't running right. It didn't matter what you did to that mower it wouln't run right. I could not convince him it was fuel from his bulk tank. I told him I had a new gas I wanted him to try for 2 months. He agree....he couldn't remember when his mower ran that good.

The new gas was gas that was less than 30 days old.

by aagitch
What octane do you guys use? Have you noticed a difference? What about MMO in the fuel?

I use 89 octane gas when plowing and 87 octane for everything else. I don't use MMO.