Strength of the creeper?

[garnold]

This topic has been touched on here and there on other threads but I really wanted to focus on it here. I know Ill get some mixed opinions here but does the addition of the creeper lesson the strength of your drive shaft assembly?

I think we can all agree that the creeper slows your tractor down via gear ratio. That being said, technically your gaining more power now out of your engine with that speed trade off. Now I say technically because this power puts new stress on parts plus stress on the creeper itself. Since my thought is that cub cadet introduced the creeper as a tool to offer your trator more speeds rather then power, do you folks think its also strong to take the stress of pulling larger weight?

Here's another reason I ask. Ok I know Zero, nada, zip about pulling other then the obvious. Your tractors job is to pull large amounts of weight. If that's the case, and the creeper gear gives your tractor more power why doesn't more pullers use these on their smaller stock tractors? I can see why they would not for their hopped up, higher rpm engine models but wouldn't it be ideal for your stock engine entrees?

Also, the 169 (16hp size engine) was only offered as hydro and that has me wondering if this was because the stock clutch and creeper could not handle that size engine.

Please understand that these are all questions and I'm not offering any first hand experience but trying to gain some knowledge from others first hand experience.

Thanks for any input here

[OldAndInTheWay]

As I understand it, creeper gearing was to slow the machine down while keeping RPMs up to give implements like snow machines and tillers going at their best rpm while keeping the tractor from going to fast for the work involved.. Not for pulling power.

[PaulS]

I have used a 102 with creeper since the mid 70s. That statement in no way makes me an expert but have never had anything broken due to the use of the creeper. I did have problems with the drive shaft coupler roll pins coming loose and several times had the roll pin that connects the yoke inside the creeper come out. I have never tested the pulling power but would assume if you cannot pull something in high range most likely you will not be able to pull it in low range. Pullers rely on wheel speed to keep them going and since you must stop to change to low range that would be where you would be scored at as you have to keep the sled moving.

[Oak]

The creeper is the weak link. It is not for more power it is a gear reduction assembly for using a blower or tiller and nothing else.

[Merk]

Originally Posted by OldAndInTheWay

As I understand it, creeper gearing was to slow the machine down while keeping RPMs up to give implements like snow machines and tillers going at their best rpm while keeping the tractor from going to fast for the work involved.. Not for pulling power.

That exactly what the creeper gear was designed for. They can be good for slow tractor racing too. I know one gent that had a tractor that would move 6 inches a minute.

12 horse power is the largest engine that IH Cub Cadet came with. By time the higher horse power came to the market the hyrdo Cub Cadets were the number one seller. 4 out of the top 5 lowest production are manual trans.

Another reason is the stock clutch could hold the power. They could have put a heavier spring in it........makes the clutch pedal push harder. I had problems with clutch slipage in my hop up 100 when I pull a moldboard plow. The only way I could fix the problem was to add a heavier spring and a kevlar disc.

We had a gent that had a creeper in his 100 at plow day. By the end of the day the creeper was making some funny/strange sounds. When he removed the creeper it came out in parts. You loose the drirect link to the tranns with a creeper in the driveline.

[4SPEED]

I have one on my 582 for tilling only. love it. my hydro drive pushes the snow thrower.

if i had it to do over again I would use a WF hydro drive to till with. I still use the clutch on the 582 to slow it down a little more.
LOW 1 is still to fast for my tiller.

[J-Mech]

This topic always seems to get debate. The same debate occurs with the "big" IH's and the Torque Amplifier. (Similar topic) I'm not trying to debate, but I can explain torque and how it affects the driveline. But I too have some questions about some previous statements.

I agree, that IH mostly had in mind that adding a creeper would give the operator more gear selections, and that the main purpose was to slow the tractor down. I however contend, that IH would not have put a gear reduction drive on the machine if it couldn't handle the load given it. That said, I do not argue that it is the weak link in the "chain" of the drive train.

Lets do it this way.
For this equation there can be several variables, so lets set some hard number to use. Let's assume that a stock Kohler K301 (12HP) is capable of producing 20 ftlbs of torque. (I'm sure that is high, but 20 is an easy number to work with, and I couldn't find an exact number.) Lets also assume that we can get all power from the engine to the ground. (No wheel slip.)
*Disclaimer: If I get a trans ratio incorrect, forgive me. It will change the results yes, but doesn't really change the point.

Now, 20ftlbs going into the creeper then becomes 80ftlbs because it is a 4:1 ratio. Going on to gear reduction drive, a ratio of 6:1 and now that torque becomes 480 ftlbs. Through first gear, 3:1, 1440 ftlbs. Ring and pinion, 4.6:1, 6624 ftlbs. Now comparatively without the creeper, in to out is 20ftlbs in, 1656ftlbs out. WOW! Quite a difference!

Now we all know that you would never be able to get all that torque to the ground, and even if you did, something is going to break. IH knew you couldn't get it ALL there, so no big deal. So.... here is the deal. Torque goes backward through the drivetrain as well as it does the other way. That engine only produces torque when it is put under a load. So the driveline only can withstand as much load as traction will allow, and as much torque as the motor can produce. The load on the driveshaft is the same, creeper or not, because the motor can only produce "X" amount of torque. Once again, I state, that I do not argue that a creeper is the weak link when in use. When it is not in use I cannot see how, unless it is not in tip top shape, that is would be any different than direct drive (no creeper).

Which brings me to my questions.

Originally Posted by Merk

12 horse power is the largest engine that IH Cub Cadet came with.

For my clarity I assume that you are referring to the largest engine in a gear drive?

Originally Posted by Merk

We had a gent that had a creeper in his 100 at plow day. By the end of the day the creeper was making some funny/strange sounds. When he removed the creeper it came out in parts. You loose the drirect link to the tranns with a creeper in the driveline.

How could that be? If you are running the creeper in direct drive, it IS a direct link from the driveline to the trans, minus a few extra "spirol" (or solid steel, whatever) pins? I don't see the difference....

I state again, I'm not tying to start a debate, or an argument. I agree a creeper is a weak link, but I don't buy the argument that when installed it is any more prone to break when not in use. Or the argument that it won't handle loads.

As far a tractor pulling is concerned, that is a different ball game. With A LOT of variables. As stated wheel speed is VERY important in pulling, so that is why they don't use them. You need power AND speed when tractor pulling. It's like getting a running start. More momentum.

[garnold]

So I never thought of one of your points. With the creeper in high isn't it just a direct link now? Honestly I'm just trying to learn plus figure out how I want to build up my tractor. I know I want to put a larger engine in. I'm looking for either a 14 or 16 hp upgrade. I also have a creeper but don't want to put it into a tractor that is going to break it. These parts are rare and rather expensive so I'm trying my best to learn from all you folks and build up a pretty sweet tractor

[4SPEED]

so then , what will you be doing with the creeper in low to break it?

[4SPEED]

the week link is the spring pins in the drive shaft. thats what there for , to break if drive line gets in a bind.
my creeper came with hardened gears and solid pins