Creeper gear oil

johncub7172 · #1 06-17-2013, 08:52 PM

Seen this at my dealer today and had to have it! Going to try this in my creeper gear in the 72.

Hytran in the transmission, and Cub Cadet engine oil !

J-Mech · #2 06-17-2013, 09:00 PM

...... it's gear lube....

Maxwelhse · #3 06-17-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mech

...... it's gear lube....

My exact thought!

I hope it wasn't expensive!

I'm sure in 50 years it will become a collectors item (honestly... us tractor guys are insane) so don't open it!!

Put some Mobil 1 in it instead... Same GL-5 rating, probably will never be collectable, and all of the benefits of synthetic (virtually no ash)....

Sam Mac · #4 06-17-2013, 09:33 PM

My service manual says to use Hy-Tran or SAE 30 engine oil in the creeper. But it is a pretty plastic bottle.

johncub7172 · #5 06-17-2013, 10:11 PM

Thank you for the replies, and ideas! Just wanted to share because I don't recall anyone using this product here on the forum. So now we have it, lol!

CADplans · #6 06-17-2013, 10:16 PM

The label says it is approved for Originals only, I got a QL!!

Maxwelhse · #7 06-17-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Mac

My service manual says to use Hy-Tran or SAE 30 engine oil in the creeper. But it is a pretty plastic bottle.

It *IS* a pretty bottle, and you can't argue that in 50 years guys will be holding knives to each others throats to get at it, but I'm going to debate the manual here a little.

HyTran, despite all its miraculous accomplishments and legendary following appears in "eyeball" viscosity to be very similar to Dextron-3 ATF (which I have said more than a couple of times that my Dad ran, incorrectly, in my 149 for about 2000 hours without issue), which is very much different than 30W motor oil...

I realize that no one can get in their time machine and roll back to the 1960s and ask the IH engineer what their design intent was, but those two options sure don't seem like straight forward substitutes. I will also confess that my eyeball isn't a calibrated instrument for measuring the physical properties of oils. My observation is just that, but I think if most mechanics (professionals) dumped their hand in a tube of Dextron-3 and the other hand in a tub of HyTran, they wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

Given my limited exposure to creepers (an entire experience of a single creeper pulled from a 1200 that appeared to have gear oil in it, right or wrong, when I drained it), in addition to my professional background on the topic, I'd run gear oil in it, change it at ~50 hours or annually (which ever comes first) and sleep well with that maintenance routine. For most of us 1 change a year is more like 20 hours... I'd bet you $50 that low grade olive oil would work with that maintenance cycle for at least the next 20 years (creepers cost $150+, so one of us is losing that bet no matter what). Should you choose not to use common cooking oil, I previously mentioned that I prefer Mobil 1.

@John: Cub Cadet branded oil, no matter the grade, is not required. That's simply handing MTD extra money for no reason. I assure you that "Cub Cadet" doesn't make their own lubricants... My suspicion is that the same company making that gear lube is probably also making "Valuecraft" oil at Autozone and "Super 2000" oil at Walmart.

I know you weren't soliciting opinions, but I'd run that same weight, in a quality oil like Mobil 1 or Lucas, if that were my creeper and I wanted to keep it nice.

Disclaimer: All of the above is my only my opinion and is complete conjecture. I would do exactly as I described if it were my own equipment though.

johncub7172 · #8 06-17-2013, 10:56 PM

Max- I bet Mobil is a great product, in fact I know! I have seen on the forum the amount of water Hytran will collect in a transmission. But I have not seen what the other brands have done. When it comes to my Cub Cadets, I'm a book thumper for the most part. Knowing from the group that the hydro drive garden tractors run hot when being used for work. IH only recommends Hytran because the hydro trans cools and condensation begins which cant be helped. I would think that is in a different league with auto motive transmission oil that is cooled by a radiator. But on the same note that don't mean I don't believe your comment on that subject.

As well as what some members here feel is best for their machines, it is good to know what else works and what don't. Especially if you find yourself in a pinch! But as a cheff who loves to cook with olive oil, I believe that the olive oil would turn rancid, and gum up after a while, but would still work somewhat.

Maxwelhse · #9 06-17-2013, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johncub7172

Max- I bet Mobil is a great product, in fact I know! I have seen on the forum the amount of water Hytran will collect in a transmission. But I have not seen what the other brands have done. When it comes to my Cub Cadets, I'm a book thumper for the most part. Knowing from the group that the hydro drive garden tractors run hot when being used for work. IH only recommends Hytran because the hydro trans cools and condensation begins which cant be helped. I would think that is in a different league with auto motive transmission oil that is cooled by a radiator. But on the same note that don't mean I don't believe your comment on that subject.

As well as what some members here feel is best for their machines, it is good to know what else works and what don't. Especially if you find yourself in a pinch! But as a cheff who loves to cook with olive oil, I believe that the olive oil would turn rancid, and gum up after a while, but would still work somewhat.

1 - Chef, I welcome your advice at anytime! I love my machines, but I love food more!!!

I did up 20lbs of pork ribs Sunday for 20 relatives (I know... they have to be nice... but the 2 from Alabama wouldn't BS on BBQ. nor would my deadly blunt parents) told me they were outstanding!

The previous weekend it was 40lbs of burgers, brats, and dogs... Chef, I know that what I'm doing isn't rocket science, but I'm trying!!! If the cooking world, in reality, weren't so competitive I would have happily been a Chef rather than a Mechanical Engineer. I can't taste a rubber mill or a class 8 truck cooling system doing it's thing, nor see others enjoy it!

1a. ALL that said.. I'm pretty sure that even the worst oil olive doesn't smoke until over 300F.... Well beyond the boiling point of water...

...if someone wants to take my Pepsi challenge... I'm game... I'll run oil olive (*I* pick what olive oil) in my Hydro for the rest of the summer (new filter though, of course), if another party wants to match me... I'll need 2 impartial referees for each geography for the challenge to judge the results of my machine vs. the competitors! I ain't skeerd....

2 - Without any concrete data, and as a brilliant former boss of mine once said "and engineer without data is just another asshole with an opinion", I suspect a hardworking hydro achieves over 212F, which should make it steam any water out of its vent without any issue. I don't have any jobs these days that require my Cubs to work that hard, but I may toss a thermocouple at my diff with my multimeter just to see if my opinion is even remotely accurate. Considering that after 1.5 hours of mowing I don't wanna touch my axle housing, I'm suspecting over 212F with Rural King "Traveler" HyTran...

3... (Not sure who I'm talking to at this point????)... Seriously... Bring it on! If the 149 pops its cork I've got a 1650 to swap a motor in.. If that fails, I've got a sweet Lawnboy 7.5hp 2 cycle to mow with... If that B won't start, I've got a wicket Stihl brush cutter... If that doesn't work, immmmma Round-Up all of it and play Playstation for the rest of the summer..

J-Mech · #10 06-17-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse

but I'm going to debate the manual here a little.

1.) I've been wrenching long time and if someone said that to me I would want some pretty stiff arguing followed by multiple examples of why they want to defer from the very thing that the designers wanted. It would have to be based on more than a few hours of testing on one machine, or a "feeling" that it was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse

HyTran, despite all its miraculous accomplishments and legendary following appears in "eyeball" viscosity to be very similar to Dextron-3 ATF

2.) Yes, Hy-Tran and DexIII is almost the same fluid. Near as I can tell the only difference is that Hy-Tran can "absorb" the water and DexIII does not. This being based on the fact that in International's heavy machines I.E. a 530 Payloader, it states that either Hy-Tran or DexIII can be used in the torque converter drive. I'm sure I can find other machines of IH origin that have the same recommendation, but that one is fresh on my mind because I just worked on one. Based on that, I would say the two fluids are interchangeable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse

which is very much different than 30W motor oil...

I realize that no one can get in their time machine and roll back to the 1960s and ask the IH engineer what their design intent was, but those two options sure don't seem like straight forward substitutes.

3.) If you have ever worked on hydraulic systems, or fluid drives, you would know that 30WT oil is very commonly a substitute for a hydraulic oil. Most often, it is recommended when the ambient temp is high. You would "think" that the two fluids are very different, when in reality they are not. Hydraulic oils range in viscosity just like motor oils. SAE 30 is not that much heavier than a typical hydraulic oil (On average hydraulic oil is a SAE20- SAE-30)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse

Given my limited exposure to creepers (an entire experience of a single creeper pulled from a 1200 that appeared to have gear oil in it, right or wrong, when I drained it), in addition to my professional background on the topic, I'd run gear oil in it, change it at ~50 hours or annually (which ever comes first) and sleep well with that maintenance routine. For most of us 1 change a year is more like 20 hours... I'd bet you $50 that low grade olive oil would work with that maintenance cycle for at least the next 20 years (creepers cost $150+, so one of us is losing that bet no matter what).

4.) I think this part is interesting. "Given my limited exposure to creepers" ..... How then do you justify making a recommendation like that if you admit you basically know nothing about them? I'm not totally sure what your "professional background" all entails but from that comment I would say it definitely isn't tearing machines down all day. I'm sure you weren't soliciting opinions either but to make such a bold statement on using olive oil in these machines should come with more than just a "I think it would be OK". As far as the last part goes with the $50 bet, and the cost of the creeper, if he does go ahead and do it are you going to buy him a new creeper if it fails on olive oil?

Now, maybe I'm going overboard here, but if you are going to blatantly disregard the recommendations of the service manual, maybe you should test it on your own machine before spouting off that it can be done. I may not always "go by the book" but when I don't I'll pay for it if I'm wrong. Unless I know from more than one experience that it will work, I definitely don't recommend it to other people.