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DRohacek 02-18-2021 09:29 AM

Another Motorgrader
 
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I have been wanting to build a motor grader for a few years and just never seemed to get started on it. Looking at Frank's finally got me interested again and I have started building one also. You will notice more than than a few similarities because I wanted mine to look like a miniature motor grader as well. No need to reinvent the wheel. One notable difference you can see is the addition of a powered front axle as well. The front axle is from a Ford 1110 4 wheel drive tractor and I plan to power it with a hydraulic motor with an electric clutch to disengage it. It's still early in the project but I am pretty deep into it already.

DRohacek 02-18-2021 09:34 AM

Not sure why some of the pictures are upside down

R Bedell 02-18-2021 09:45 AM

First, welcome to OCC.... :Welcome2:

Next, I straightened out your images.

You can use programs like Irfanview to fix your images.

Lastly, it is my understanding, that taking pictures with your phone, should be done horizontally.

DRohacek 02-18-2021 10:03 AM

Excellent Thank you and Thank you!

twoton 02-18-2021 06:29 PM

:popcorn: subscribed

DRohacek 02-18-2021 11:17 PM

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Years ago (like 28) I built a rotisserie for car restorations. Came in handy for welding the underside of the goose neck.

sawdustdad 02-19-2021 08:53 PM

Looking good! Will be following in case I need to retrofit some ideas to mine!

DRohacek 02-19-2021 08:59 PM

Thanks. I’m mounting the hydraulic cylinders but I am not sure how all the control need to be. Not my strong suit.

Getter-Done 02-20-2021 10:39 AM

Nice Rotisserie you have there.

That makes life a little easier when welding stuff like that:biggrin2:

I'm in to follow your build.

I have a question on your plan to
get the front tires pulling the same speed as
the 2 rear hydro's.

Will you use some type of proportioning valve or
a flow control valve?









.

CubDieselFan 02-20-2021 12:29 PM

Cool project. Thanks for taking us along. Keep the pictures coming.

DRohacek 02-21-2021 12:16 AM

I haven't fully decided on how I will synch the front drive with the rear. I think to start with I will mount an electric clutch on the hydraulic motor so I can completely disengage it from driving the front differential when not needed. I know Case 220 and 446 tractors have hydraulic motors that are control with a valve mounted under the dash. If I can use something like that I may be able to connect it to the lever control on the cub rears. I think it would be a trial and error situation to sync them as close as possible. Additionally I consider the front an "assist" rather than full time. I think if I have a momentary switch hooked to the electric clutch I could just engage the front when needed. Lots to figure out there yet. My plan is to get the grader functional with the rear drive first befor I tackle the addition of the front drive.

DRohacek 02-23-2021 07:46 AM

For the front drive I am planning on using a Case 220 speed controller and hook it to the other linkage and see if I can synchronize them.

I have a hydro question if someone can answer it. One of the rears I am using has the manual release valves. Can I replace them with the automatic valves?

I looked at the post that shows a place to order them and in the pictures they appear to be the same.

DRohacek 02-23-2021 08:42 AM

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I'm using a one inch driveshaft between the hydros. That should reduce any flex. I have mounted a pillow block as well. I wanted to bolt the pillow block directly to the front rear as there are bolts already in the top but the bearing was too tall to fit.

The engine is a K582 Kohler. 58 cubic inch opposed twin. It came off a Jacobsen commercial reel mower that was used by a golf course. I wanted to use an electric clutch to disengage the drive during start up but the 1-7/16 shaft size presents a problem. Not truly impossible to find one but at $350 I decided to put a manual release on it.

Leadslingingdaddy 02-23-2021 09:02 AM

That's the size of a JD 318 shaft... see if you can find a parts machine on CL or FB for the clutch...

DRohacek 02-23-2021 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leadslingingdaddy (Post 505739)
That's the size of a JD 318 shaft... see if you can find a parts machine on CL or FB for the clutch...

Thanks. I will look around some more. Something else that I am unsure of is if the charge pump will have enough volume to run a hydraulic motor for the front wheel drive. I am only planning on using the front drive on an as needed basis.

Ambush 02-23-2021 06:23 PM

Short answer is no. But you could easily mount a pump to the front of the front hydro. Be tricky to synchronize the front drive speed to the others. Best would be a small, mechanically variable displacemnt piston pump to a geroler motor and a separate oil tank. Probably cost a $1,000.

sawdustdad 02-23-2021 09:07 PM

And yes, you can exchange the manual release valves for the auto version, no problem.

My front hydro is ported and that's what I used for all the hydraulics. If you do the same, you'll have a problem with room to mount a pump there. You, of course, could use the pump for all your hydraulics, and won't need to use the ports.

DRohacek 02-25-2021 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sawdustdad (Post 505767)
And yes, you can exchange the manual release valves for the auto version, no problem.

My front hydro is ported and that's what I used for all the hydraulics. If you do the same, you'll have a problem with room to mount a pump there. You, of course, could use the pump for all your hydraulics, and won't need to use the ports.

Do you have a recommendation for a pump? What pumps did you have mocked up when you were thinking of driving with hydraulic motors? I will need a pump and motor for the front drive system. I am assuming I can drive off the rear shaft if the direction is ok. I hear you on the front pretty tight in there if I use the ports. I was thinking of using the ports for the power steering and everything else from a separate pump. Also, if I add an additional inline filter would it be ok to use the rear hydro for a tank? I'm also running a trans cooler.

sawdustdad 02-25-2021 09:02 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DRohacek (Post 505844)
Do you have a recommendation for a pump? What pumps did you have mocked up when you were thinking of driving with hydraulic motors? I will need a pump and motor for the front drive system. I am assuming I can drive off the rear shaft if the direction is ok. I hear you on the front pretty tight in there if I use the ports. I was thinking of using the ports for the power steering and everything else from a separate pump. Also, if I add an additional inline filter would it be ok to use the rear hydro for a tank? I'm also running a trans cooler.

Northern Tool has a wide selection of hydraulic pumps and motors. A 6 gpm pump at about 2500 psi is about 8 hp which would work pretty well for your front axle. You need one that can handle the 3600 rpm engine speed unless you belt drive one at lower speed. (some don't handle side loads with a pulley).

This is the one I bought--bi directional/3600 rpm, pump or motor. Probably not "industrial" grade, but for my needs I felt the price was right.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...1989_200641989

I don't know about using the rear axle for a reservoir for a gear pump. Ambush talked me out of it, basically. He's got a lot more experience with such stuff. It was enough uncertainty for me to fall back to the belt drive which is much simpler.

I am using the rear axle reservoir for my tandem dump, and it has a motor running constantly, (about 2 gpm) circulating to the rear axle reservoir, but it's not doing any work unless it's lifting the bed which is pretty infrequent. So the work being done is much less (like 5%) of the work being done by a full time hydraulic drive system which is constantly under a lot of load. That heavy load creates a lot more heat and potentially more wear on components, which creates the concern that Ambush identified.

What's the worse case? A failed hydro? What's that cost to replace? Like $50 to $100, so not a huge consequence if you decide to go down that path anyway. It's not like you are building something for market, it's a toy, so who cares if it has an occasional failure? You know, how many hours will it actually be used anyway? Maybe 10 to 20 hours/yr?

A filter would certainly be a good idea. The fluid fed from the axle's reservoir to the axle's hydro is filtered by the hydro's own filter so I think any debris sent to the axle reservoir would get filtered out before it got to the hydro itself. If I needed to drive the front axle, I think I'd seriously consider using the rear axle for a reservoir, despite the risks, since the consequences are rather small.

Maybe Ambush will add some advice.

Here's the Tandem set up. I used the forward axle's housing for the reservoir to avoid all the plumbing right beside the Lovejoy driving the pump behind the rear axle.

DRohacek 02-25-2021 10:47 PM

Excellent information! Thank you. i'm still sorting out the front drive but I want to know more about what I am doing by the time I get there. I picked up a speed control from a Case tractor and I think it is going to work for controlling the front axle. I still have to build the rear bulkhead and seat box but I want to get the hydraulics worked out while everything is still wide open. On a side note a friend on mine who just found out that I am building this offered me a 905E Kubota diesel that I would have loved to use for this but I already have the K582 in place and don't want to change it. I am going to pick up the Kubota anyway. I will need it somewhere!

DRohacek 02-26-2021 11:32 PM

I'm thinking of welding a bung into the bottom of the rear cover to draw oil from to the pump mounted behind the rear hydro sending it to a 5 spool valve and returning it through the oil cooler then into the top of the trans through the top cover.

DRohacek 02-26-2021 11:32 PM

https://www.vevor.com/products/5-spo...xoC6rUQAvD_BwE

sawdustdad 02-27-2021 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRohacek (Post 505884)
I'm thinking of welding a bung into the bottom of the rear cover to draw oil from to the pump mounted behind the rear hydro sending it to a 5 spool valve and returning it through the oil cooler then into the top of the trans through the top cover.

That's a good idea. I installed bulkhead fittings into the axle cover--pump suction (with a dip tube on the underside), relief valve return and motor return. Your valve has an integral relief valve, so you'll only need one return. Perhaps a fill port as well. You'll need a return for the front axle drive pump, too, I guess. And maybe a relief valve for that, too. Depends on what you set up is.

I have 5 hydraulic functions--left and right blade height, blade skew, blade angle and blade locking pin. I have a 2 twin spool valves for the first four functions, and I use the tractor's original lift spool valve for the locking pin cylinder. I've thought about needing another for a ripper, but I've run out of spools, so I'd have to add another.

I only mention this to point out the need to determine ahead of time all the various functions you need and to plan ahead with spool valve capacity.

I wish I had considered a float function. Right now, blade position is fixed by the cylinders. It would be nice, in some situations, to let the blade just float and follow the terrain. Or, as with many front end loaders, the joystick has a float position that puts some moderate down force but allows the bucket to follow the terrain. That would be a nice feature if you could manage it. There are some joystick (for FEL) that have float, don't know about the multiple spool type that you posted.

Ambush 02-28-2021 12:20 AM

You fellas have access to some very affordable hydraulic components. And like sawdustdad said, these are toys, not production machines.

Definitely a float valve would be an asset on the blade height cylinders. I could be wrong, but I believe you could add one after the tractor's original valve.

Just operating the cylinders on the grader won't cause much heat. A bigger issue with using the axle housing as the reservoir would be, IMO, the fluctuation in fluid level. You've got several cylinders in the system and each one has a volume differential between the two sides. Depending on rod diameter the difference can be quite substantial. The difference between having all (or most) cylinders extended or retracted at the same time would be fairly extreme in the small axle reservoir. There would be times of underfill and times of over fill.

To hydraulic drive the front would absolutely require a separate pump, motor and reservoir. And would be near impossible to synchronize.

If I was intent on having a front drive, I'd change the rear drives over as well. I'd remove the hydro drives. Take two salvage motor shaft/pinions and mount a motor to each. Drive those motors through a three port flow divider with a separate pump direct mounted to the engine. Figure the difference in the driven gear ratios between the rears and the donor front drive and get a motor to suit that.

I think a better investment in time and engineering would be a walking axle.

DRohacek 02-28-2021 05:58 PM

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Ambush I think you are correct about a separate pump and reservoir. I have thought about using the transmission for a reservoir but definitely don't want to starve it at any time or cause the external pump to cavitate.

I know that synchronizing this will be a challenge but I am going to attempt it. I think it needs to be pretty close but it will be working in dirt and gravel so I think there is room for a small amount of leeway. Today I have mounted the Case tractor speed control and linked it to the control lever for the rears. The case valve moves less distance than the hydro plates so I needed to hook the Case control closer to the pivot point so that it would move the correct amount when the others move farther. Not sure how clear I am making this.

Finding a place to mount the control and be able to hook to the dash lever of the hydro was a challenge to say the least. Getting it in position and mounted was like putting 10 pounds of sand in a 5 pound bag. The pictures may not show everything that I am trying to explain but I did the best I could with them.

DRohacek 02-28-2021 06:08 PM

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Figuring out the seat placement and steering wheel placement is in progress. Right now it's still in mock up to see what works best for me. After I am happy with the seat placement I will build the bulkhead behind the seat. I'm going to have to be creative with the exhaust routing as it is way close to the seat. I will insulate the bulkhead with header wrap material and some high temperature batting that I have.

DRohacek 02-28-2021 06:14 PM

Quote:

You fellas have access to some very affordable hydraulic components. And like sawdustdad said, these are toys, not production machines.
Definitely a float valve would be an asset on the blade height cylinders. I could be wrong, but I believe you could add one after the tractor's original valve.


I had thought about float but at this point I am going without it.
At this point I can raise and lower the blade, tip it right or left(up or down), angle it left or right, skew it to the right and angle it to cut a ditch or up to grade a bank.
The blade can roll forward also to make the cut less aggressive and more of a finishing step.

DRohacek 03-09-2021 08:51 PM

I haven't made any decent pictures of the progress lately. I am very busy with work right now and haven't had much time to spend in the garage. I am having knee surgery next Tuesday so I'm not sure how that's going to work with playing in the garage. I had ordered a bi-rotational hydraulic pump but when it came I didn't like that it had 4 ports and an additional drain hole. The pump was bigger in size than I expected which was going to make it more difficult to get it in place where I want it. I want to mount it behind the rear hydro much like Frank did on his tandem tractor build. This pump was too big to sit in the cavity. One good thing though, I sent a message to the folks I bought it from and told them it was exactly what I ordered but I was wrong with what I ordered. They said no problem, send it back for a credit and even paid the shipping for the return!! Like who does that??? So I will definitely buy a smaller pump from them.
I think I am going to try to get things buttoned up and running with just the two rears so I can test everything before I start redoing it to hook in the front drive axle. I think I need to sort everything out before I set up the extra hydraulic system. I'm still trying to decide if I will use the rear hydro for a reservoir or put on a separate tank. Space is starting to be a premium so I'm leaning towards using the rear for the reservoir. I am also running an inline oil cooler. More pictures soon.

DRohacek 03-16-2021 12:02 PM

Purchased some of the hydraulic hoses today. Man those guys don't play. the two power steering hoses are 153 inches long. $100.00 each :bigeyes:
The 5 spool valve is all BSPP thread which needs to be changed to JIC 6 12 of those @ 8.45 ea. A few more fittings and one 24 inch hose and $297.00 later out the door I went. This is about half what I need yet!

CADplans 03-16-2021 07:31 PM

Powering the front axle will be eazy-peazy,,,

Simply design the drive of the pump/hydraulic motor to be a little too fast(10-15%) at working speed.
The front axle has to be designed for a single speed, or else the pump will need to be variable displacement
(VD means BIG $$$$ ,, and hard to operate considering the 10 other levers you will already be trying to move correctly,, :biggrin2:)

The trick will be to use a VERY low pressure, so that the excess flow will simply go past the pressure relief valve .

You can get the power you want by using a large hydraulic motor, and matching pump.

The pressure has to be low (less than 650 psi) so as to not heat the hydraulic oil too much.
So, you need to buy a hydraulic motor that will give the speed and torque you want when operated at 650 psi.

Now you know the pump size (displacement in cubic inches per revolution)

The pump that you select will simply be sized to give the flow needed to rotate the hydraulic motor at the correct speed.

There is no other spec for a single stage gear pump, only the GPM at engine speed.
I do not know of a pump that is not rated for the pressure that you will be using, so GPM is the only spec for the single stage gear pump.

(The higher the pressure, the greater the heating of oil as it goes past the relief valve)

I simply explained the drive system that was used on an early rear wheel assist conversion for a two wheel drive combine,,
that was used to convert the 2WD combine to 4WD at the lowest possible cost.

I read about it somewhere,, but, that was the "pre-internet" era,, :bigeyes:

DRohacek 03-16-2021 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CADplans (Post 506539)
Powering the front axle will be eazy-peazy,,,

Simply design the drive of the pump/hydraulic motor to be a little too fast(10-15%) at working speed.
The front axle has to be designed for a single speed, or else the pump will need to be variable displacement
(VD means BIG $$$$ ,, and hard to operate considering the 10 other levers you will already be trying to move correctly,, :biggrin2:)

The trick will be to use a VERY low pressure, so that the excess flow will simply go past the pressure relief valve .

You can get the power you want by using a large hydraulic motor, and matching pump.


The pressure has to be low (less than 650 psi) so as to not heat the hydraulic oil too much.
So, you need to buy a hydraulic motor that will give the speed and torque you want when operated at 650 psi.

Now you know the pump size (displacement in cubic inches per revolution)

The pump that you select will simply be sized to give the flow needed to rotate the hydraulic motor at the correct speed.

There is no other spec for a single stage gear pump, only the GPM at engine speed.
I do not know of a pump that is not rated for the pressure that you will be using, so GPM is the only spec for the single stage gear pump.

(The higher the pressure, the greater the heating of oil as it goes past the relief valve)

I simply explained the drive system that was used on an early rear wheel assist conversion for a two wheel drive combine,,
that was used to convert the 2WD combine to 4WD at the lowest possible cost.

I read about it somewhere,, but, that was the "pre-internet" era,, :bigeyes:

Actually the front axle will be variable speed because the hydraulic motor will be controlled by a speed and direction control. The pump has little to do with it other than supply oil pressure at a constant level. Any excess pressure/volume is routed to the return line, through the oil cooler and back to the reservoir by the speed controller.

DRohacek 03-25-2021 04:55 AM

Fired up the grader today testing the switch wires. Everything was perfect. No mystery smoke which is a good thing. While is was on the stand I decided to test the rears and attempt synchronization. The back hydro is not moving. Not sure what that is all about yet. I purchased the rear from two different places as pieces so I never saw them run. Only one of the rears has automatic relief valves so I switched those to the rear hydro because the engine sits over them and there is no good way to use manual valves there. The front rear that originally had those valves now has the manual valves and operates as it should. I think I will move the manual valves back to the rear just to see if that makes any difference.

On a different note I had only planned to check the wiring and makes sure the engine was running properly but when everything went along without a hitch I decided to engage the belt tightener just to test the rears. My brain fog apparently had not cleared yet as I forgot that I had the return fluid line removed from the spool valves. In case anyone needs to know the charge pump will produce enough pressure to spray about 15 feet across your garage. At least I feel like the system is flushed pretty well now.:bash2:

DRohacek 03-25-2021 05:08 AM

I had built the perfect battery box and tucked it down between the frame rails and was just as happy as I could be with how nicely it all fit into the tight spot. Putting my metal brake to work I was impressed with the finished product as the battery was a nice tight slip fit into the box. As I tried to start that big ole 58 cubic inch opposed Kohler it was obvious that a garden tractor battery was not going to work. So now my beautifully hand crafted battery box lays in my pile of "i'll use that some day parts" in the corner of my garage and I had to find a different spot for a full size group 27 battery. Oh well minor issue.

DRohacek 03-28-2021 06:55 PM

Waiting on back ordered parts
 
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Attachment 107784Attachment 107781I am not making a lot of progress with installing the hydraulics because of back ordered parts. The spool valves are 1/2 inch BSPP that I am converting to JIC6.
Those pieces are back ordered keeping me from installing the hoses to the spool valves. I worked on getting the hood closer to what I want. The grill and hood are from a 100 and so the hood narrows sharply at the rear. That would not be a big deal if I were using a single cylinder engine. The opposed twin is very wide and so as the hood gets closer to the bulkhead it is just too narrow. I had to split the hood, cut a new center section and also extend it about 6 inches. I finished the bulkhead and plan on gluing a rubber trunk seal around where the hood mates to seal it and stop vibration harmonics. I probably should have just bent a new hood because the bondo work to hid everything is not my best subject. I have a friend that says he doesn't mind body work. I think this is his job! A few pictures as I keep moving a bit at a time.

By the way the knee surgery went well and I expect to be back to work in another week. I am pain free and have 100% mobility!

DRohacek 03-28-2021 07:09 PM

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I keep forgetting to rotate the images.

DRohacek 04-04-2021 12:29 AM

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Under it's own power and hydraulic completed. The hood is not completed. Some body work still needed and some sheet metal work still to be done before painting.

DRohacek 07-05-2021 06:13 PM

Some paint
 
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[ATTACH]Attachment 108731[/ATTACH]Attachment 108731
Got some paint on it while the weather is decent.
Not finished but I won't have time to get to it again until it's too cold to paint.

DRohacek 07-05-2021 06:21 PM

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Back inside until I have time to get back to it.

DRohacek 07-05-2021 06:24 PM

Engine
 
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One more picture for now. Those vice grips have been on there so long that I need to give them a part number.

Getter-Done 07-05-2021 11:33 PM

Great Job:ThumbsUp:



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