Is this a ported pump?
 

I was thinking about making a hydro build for a few things. Would be nice to use a ported pump although I dont know how much accessories that can run. (Bucket loader?)

Anyway, is this rear a ported pump?

Thanks!

I'd say no, but the ports would be hidden by the curved suction line in the photo.
It also appears to be the factory oil filter, as all the new replacements do not have a canister filter, they are throwaway spin on like we are used to seeing the last 50 years.
You are not going to operate much hyd equipment with about 4 GPM's full throttle.
Admittedly, you can operate a front loader, but it will be painfully slow
in my opinion.:bigthink:

The "return loop" of the Hydro pictured, hides the areas of where the "ports" would be.

Thanks guys. Yeah I figured I'd need a separate bigger pump for a loader. I was thinking about an old car power steering pump actually. Got to check the psi and gpm. What are good numbers for those to run a loader with also a bucket tilt cylinder?

Gonna fab the loader myself

Here is what I used on my Kwik Way FEL on the 1772 and it works well.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...9706_200329706

You will want a pump with about 6 gpm at 3000 psi for a satisfyingly snappy loader. You may want a 1500 to 2000 relief valve in the system, but the 6 gpm is a good rule of thumb.

Cool thanks. What does the relief valve do?

also, Im liking this design, only 2 cylinders needed, and can buy plans too

https://www.loaderplans.com/order-ca...nd-loader#mini

A pressure relief valve keeps the desired pressure in the system.
Without one, there is nothing to control the pressure causing things to break,
like hoses, lines, pumps, etc.
Much like the pressure regulator on a propane grill, or an air compressor.:BlahBlah:

A relief valve is the one component in a hydraulic system that everybody can find to "turn up" the pressure limit. Usually believing it will compensate for a weak pump or motor. It's also the component that they fail to reset after finally installing a new pump or motor and subsequently destroy the new unit or blow all the old weak hoses. :bigeyes: The latter being preferable.

Tales From the Shop.

Cool

so how does one "reset" a pressure relief valve?

and, would this control work? says it has a pressure relief in it... and if I have a 3500lb pump, does this 2000 press relief mean I am actually limited to 2000psi at the hydraulic cylinders?

https://northernhydraulics.net/catal...g3000-668.html

A pressure relief valve is a safety of sorts.
One should not "adjust" it more than the lowest pressure recommendations of various components.
Most systems are designed to work about #1500.
Sure, some component might have a max of more than that, but look at it as a chain, the weakest link rating need be noticed.
Not to dissuade you in any way,
but one needs to learn how to drive, before trying out top speed of a conveyance.

Wanting to build a loader with plans, but no ability/tools or equipment,
is not the way to approach a "project"
Climbing a ladder requires each foot carefully placed on the rung, then another.
Trying to help here, not make anyone look foolish or belittle.
I'd rather help or be silent, than to trash someone's ideas:beerchug:

We all started out ignorant, but we learned, doing just what you are doing, asking questions, and yes a little dreaming also.
Bottom line, do you want to build a loader from scratch and learn by doing, or do you want a loader to use in the near future that is already professionally built, except for mounting??
That I believe is a what you have to answer to yourself.

There is more to it, then just cutting metal and safely welding it together.
Then you have to design a hyd system with components of like size and specifications so they all work in harmony, not fight each other.
ok,
I think I've given you some food for thought here,
and my one typing finger is tired.:BlahBlah:

I agree with the rungs. Right now I'm on the relief valve rung.

That link I posted, will something like this work for bucket control and also be my relief valve?
https://northernhydraulics.net/catal...g3000-668.html




ps as to fabrication and welding equipment, all set. :beerchug:

Short answer yes,
but If it were my build, I'd want a float position on the bucket down position. I don't see it listed in the specks.
Your build, your choice.
And that is a bigger valve than needed @ 15 GPM's #10 fittings are usually 1/2 hoses I'm assuming you are wanting to put this on a garden tractor not a ford jubilee or 800
Surpluscenter might be better prices and something smaller I haven't looked in a while
https://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulics/

thanks george that helps, will look for smaller valve which can accommodate smaller lines and has a float position for the bucket. didnt think of that.

Ok I found this video explaining 3 different types of hyd control valves. I dont quite get the float center type with check valves. Need to understand how the bucket can be stopped in any position and hold it, yet also float when for example plowing my driveway, but i will study it more later.



Cool vid tho, so sharing! :beerchug:

https://youtu.be/CQPwvWXbV3w



.

On a valve with a float spool:
In simple words, that spool has an up, hold, down, and upon farther movement, a detented position,(latch if one prefers)
as it stays where it is put, it does not have a spring loaded return to hold.
It allows both ends of the cylinder's oil, to return to tank, thus called "float" :beerchug:
Edit:
your linked video explains pilot operated check valves and a closed center system, you want an open center system.
and while pilot operated check valves have their place, you do not need them in a simple loader operation.

https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/...807#post288807

:beerchug:

twoton that is awesome. love the pump location!

but, u can get banned for linking to porn here :biggrin2:

Ur all gonna think this is pretty nuts, but on the cub build which will have the loader, I plan to do the 1" reinforced spindle upgrade, and the smallest power steering box I can find at the junkyard. For hydraulics for that, I can use a ported differential (unless the main pump can feed it along with a loader).

I ran my 2084 loader off the hydro pump for about a year.
ya it was kinda slow but I've since changed to a front 6gpm pump and for the cost it wasn't worth it. it worked fine off the hydro.

IMO the real problem while running the loader off the hydro was that the power steering would cut out from time to time. I think this was because the rear end doesn't hold quite enough oil?

thanks guy thats *very good* info. so u say u ran the loader off the ported hydro, but you also had power steering? or did u mean that the loader cutting out?

any video of the loader with the hydro pump?

anyway I like the idea to run a pump off the back side of the hydro pump like in the link that twoton posted (mostly because I'd have to find and buy a ported hydro anyway) https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/...807#post288807 .

2084's come with PS
loader always worked fine
the PS would fade with the bucket up about middle of the range.
I always thought it needed more fluid than the rear could hold.

I think this is the only known video of it in action, Son is running it
https://www.facebook.com/10001298401...7245758384885/

thanks guy...

the video said "This Content Isn't Available Right Now" would love to see it tho


thanks for the info on the PS. I agree and a supplemental reservoir may have helped perhaps...

I think you'll want a joystick type valve, as most loaders come with a single lever control. Here is a twin spool, open center, with float valve.

The advantage of a joystick valve is you can lift/lower and curl the bucket at the same time. You'll want to be able to do that.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands...57-9-12475.axd

Here's an easy way to mount a hydraulic pump without using your PTO. It is mounted behind the hydro and driven by the hydro's rear input (output) shaft. The pump is inexpensive, and the mounting process is not expensive if you have the fab skills.

I can't take credit for the idea, somebody else posted this method, I just copied it.

This is my tandem and the pump drives the hydraulic dump bed cylinder. The tractor did not have a ported hydro.

sawdust thats some cool stuff you have!

Sawdust,
Can you provide details on the pump in the picture?

He has a thread on the build of the tandem pictured, you can probably find the specifics there....
https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/...ad.php?t=50847

Thanks Ironman!

this was also shared a few posts back. same clever rear pump setup, great pictures of it

https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/...807#post288807

The pump mounted behind the hydro must be small, about 3.25 inches square to fit, and it's a snug fit.

There are several pumps in this series with same dimensions. My pump was a .129 cu in. displacement, which provides 2 gpm at 3600 rpm. That's all I needed for my single cylinder, dumping the bed and gave a moderate cylinder operating speed.

You'll want a larger displacement pump, perhaps the one with .258 cu in displacement, giving 4 gpm at 3600 rpm.

The larger displacement pumps in this series are limited to 2500 rpm intermittent. Download the tech data from Northern's web site for the pump linked below, and you'll see the pumps in the series.

Here's a pump that might work for a loader--
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...9708_200329708

Four gpm might be a bit slow for a loader, depending on the size of the cylinders. This is a high pressure pump, 2300 psi continuous, so you could use smaller diameter cylinders, giving a bit more speed on operation.

As you design the loader, you'll need to take into account pump pressure, flow rate, cylinder dia and length, and lift and curl geometry. All those things determine functionality of the final design.

Remember that hydraulic cylinders often use very high force on a shorter moment arm to achieve greater movement at the end of the component. In other words, a cylinder that pushes at a point 1/3 the way down a beam, and lifts it 1 foot with 1000 lbs of force can lift 333 lbs, 3 feet high at the end of the beam. So the lever fulcrum location and length of the beam determine the forces needed to lift a given weight.

Archimedes said it all--"Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can move the world."

If you decide 4 gpm is marginal in terms of capacity (as it might be) then you can use a larger pump and mount it differently--either further back behind the rear end, where a larger pump might fit, via a belt above the hydro unit's rear output, off the front PTO (as I suspect most are).

I'd try to contact the guy who built the loader just linked a couple posts back (where I got the idea to mount my pump) and ask him what pump he used and was he happy with the loader operating speed and capacity.

Be sure to look closely at the pump's rated RPMs as many are not rated at the Cub's engine speed--3600 rpm.

Lots of stuff to digest.

all VERY helpful thanks! yes I understand about the geometry but I did wonder why some have such a leverage disadvantage. one aspect u didnt mention is lets say I can find a 3600 rpm capable pump with lots of GPM, at what point is that too much for the 12hp Kohler?

As to choosing a pump too big for behind the hydro pump (I could cut-weld some mods tho), I wonder if theres a front PTO option that has a full time pulley behind the switched pto pulley...

or just run it off a pulley on the back of the engine like IH did... definitely dont want to skimp on bucket speed or lifting power tho...

Lots of factors affect HP requirements for hydraulic pumps including temperature (and viscosity) of fluid, plumbing friction losses, pump efficiency, etc. But you can approximate your requirements with these two equations.

this is a common rule of thumb equation:

HP=GPM x PSI x .0007

So 6 gpm x 2500 psi x .0007 = 10.5 HP

Or, another equation sometimes used,

GPM x PSI/1714 = HP

Gives a slightly different answer, 6 x 2500/1714 = 8.75HP

I think the answer to your question is a 10, 12 or 14hp Cub Cadet can easily drive a decent loader at reasonable speed.

For reference, my Kubota BX23's pump is 6 gpm at (I think)2500 psi, and the loader and backhoe work fine.

One more thing, since you mentioned lifting power. You are limited by the weight of your tractor, so adding rear weight may be needed, which, unfortunately, does add wear on rear axle bearings (unless all the weight is in the tires/wheel weights.)

Thanks sawdust, very cool info. Now I could do the calcs but the 6gpm at 2500 seems more than adequate and will use less power than the engine has. I'm sure that tractive power needs wouldnt happen at the same time as loaded bucket movement (?)

You did touch on something else new to me, the rear bearings. I always assumed that since that rear is adapted from a farmall cub, has plenty reserve strength but the axle housings may (probably) be made for cadet and have less stout bearings. I'd have to look up both and see.

I asked a foundry for a quote on a custom cast iron weight about 14x14x7 which should weight about 600lbs or close to it. The weight of the tractor, operator, and the extra weight out back are all behind the front axle, where the loader itself plus the load (500lb max) are out front by 4ft or so.

does any of this make sense?

A small loader bucket of gravel weighs about 700 lbs I think. +/-

I'd install a rack and add smaller incremental weights as needed. Handling a single 600 lb chunk of iron could be problematic. Might drop in on your toes. LOL.

LOL yeah. The foundry wants $850 for that piece and interestingly he said 410lbs but at 705lbs per cu ft for cast iron, I did the math should be ~600lbs. But anyway. Too much $$$

Still wondering about those rear wheel bearings. The front will be upgraded to 1" spindles w 5 bolt hubs and wheels. (spindles and hubs is on the way but lost in limbo by the USPS!). I dont think the front pivot pin will be an issue but if it causes any problem I'll beef that up too.

BTW I am famous for getting off to a quick start then taking a year or two to finish... but this will be finished! Tractor will be running in a few weeks hopefully with the cheapo agrifab plow I just got off FB. The lowder will take a lot longer to build and pay for the materials....

I have a friend out west who has built I think 2 loaders and 3 backhoes for small tractors, and has some great tips for it all.

I would not worry too much about the rear axle bearings. They are actually pretty durable, as most last 50 years or more. Easy to replace if needed.

If you have the rear end cover off to change the fluid, pull the circlips (E clips) off the axle ends, slide them out, replace the needle bearing and the oil seals on the end of each axle housing. Put the axles back in and replace the clips, button things up. You're good to go for another 50 years.

With an extra 500 lbs hanging off the back of the tractor, the bearings might only last 20 years...