Hydrogen Generator for Cub Cadet
 

Hello
I'm going to have some free time next week and am planning to make a hydrogen generator for my truck and am considering making one for on of my cub cadets. Has anyone here tried this?

Your going to build your own "H" tube to produce Hydrogen and Oxygen. I'm a little skeptical, unless you have a free source of hydroelectric or wind power. Chrysler did build a fuel cell a few yrs ago that converted gasoline or any hydrocarbon into H and O2. Wander what ever happened to that ? I know there are a few companies trying to extract H from the atmosphere using a type of catalytic membrane. Kind of like reverse osmosis. Keep us updated on the progress.

This sounds like another one of those nonsense "free energy" things. It won't make your engine more efficient.

No such thing as free energy, it always takes more energy to convert/make energy than it does to use the energy in current form (gas in this example) if your just wanting to experiment have fun and keep us updated on what you come up with.

I'm not sure your cub charging system would produce enough to keep the battery charged, and produce the hydrogen needed, also remember if it does, it will consume more gas to produce this hydrogen, and you will never even break even in any way, if you did we would be driving around for "free" . Same with any automobile.

I hate being the part pooper.... so please research this idea, and if anyone is trying to sell you something, go on to the next site,

Well actually a business partner drove a Nissan truck identical to the one he drives it boosted the mileage by about 10mpg but the buyer asked him to drive his truck and insisted he floor it and he said it felt like the truck had changed the motor from a 4 to a 6 cylinder and raise it by abou 40 more hp. He is a motorcyle and high performance car collector,and is very knowledgeabl in this and is getting the man to make him one.This device I planning is not a fuel cell . It generates Hydrogen Gas by electrifying a mixture of distilled water and can be used on demand as well constant. When the elctrical grid is activated the clear water turns white and the the gas is directed through rubber vaccum hose to the injectors and feeds in to the intake. What my purpose is to try on the 185 first and apply when under a heavy load like very thick grass and the blades need more power to cut. I have to cut 6 acres weekly of I only got 5-10 more hp it would help.The carburetor will pull out the gas and burn off the same as the gasoline vapors burn.Have either of you guys tried it? This is a fun project and if it works which I'll check by dynamonitor and I would glad to post film of it

Clint
I stated that I'm making one not buying one. Maybe you should learn to read more carefully before you make condesending little remarks, I wanted to see if anyone has attempted to make one before I started, so if you are unable to make give constuctive advice perhaps it's you who should " go on to the next site,"

This still doesn't make any sense. It takes energy to decompose the water into hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis, and if that comes from the tractor's charging system, that's using the engine's power output to perform the electrolysis. Due to the charging system and the electrolysis process not being 100% efficient, there will be a net LOSS of efficiency. C'mon now, if this was that great and amazing, it'd already be incorporated into current engines.

I also thought the octane rating goes up to 120-130 range..just might be too much for an ol' flathead:biggrin2.gif::biggrin2.gif::biggrin2.gif:

I was nice, I was not "condesending" NOW you figure it out... you will be the first .. Start with Thermodynamics, read below... when you CONVERT you loose, with energy you loose every time. Now spend all of your time trying to defeat the law of Thermodynamics, I wish you much luck. You should really learn how to take a post before attacking someone, especially when they were out of the way nice, not trying to make you look like an idiot, just trying to be informative, when you didn't like the answer you pounced back at me to "go on to the next site" what I was telling you was it's a huge gimmick to try and take your money with the hydrogen generators that give all this increase in horse power, and fuel economy.

Posted copied, and pasted, when you convert "water" into hydrogen your loosing energy from gasoline=chemical, mechanical=you engine, heat=friction

The second law is a bit more complex than the first law, but basically it says that any time you do work, including any time you make an energy transformation, some of the starting energy is going to be lost as heat. So when you drive a car some of the gasoline's energy is lost right a way as heat, some gets turned into mechanical energy to move the car. Even some of this mechanical energy is also lost as heat. For instance if you feel your car's tires at the end of a trip they will be hot from friction with the road. This heat is an energy loss and is a consequence of the second law.

Yeah, telling someone to leave, after they were asking question, then mocking them and them calling them an idiot.....
I was wrong, Clint you're the nicest person in the world

jscrews

I was not telling you to leave.... I was just suggestion you do a search (google) and if the search turned up one of those sites trying to sell a hydrogen generator to go on to the next site, meaning if they are trying to sell one they will say anything to get your money, and as you said you are trying to make one, not buy one.

I was not mocking you either, merely trying to give you some information before you started. People put so much bull crap (not you, sellers of these kits) out trying to to get your money, it's almost comparable to those emails trying to get you to cash a check for them.. I was only in good heart trying to steer you in the right direction.

I also was not calling you an idiot, I'm one for ignorance as a term for not knowing, as I'm very ignorant to many things cub.. I'm new to them IH Cub Cadets, however I want to learn just as your wanting to learn about the hydrogen generator... so no harm no foul here... a post is at times hard to comprehend.

If I can be of any help to you I would be more than happy, I have some to much experience in metal work, aluminum anodizing, electrical charges conducted between anode/cathode in solution.

Thanks to all who contributed constructive advice about this subject to help me understand and decide NOT to try it.

One more thing to consider, hydrogen burns much, much hotter than gasoline. I would think twice about burning hydrogen in an air cooled engine.

If I remember way back,,,, How do you pass electricity through [pure distilled water ] ? It doesn't conduct electricity. While we are on an off topic discussion and there are a few people with technical backgrounds ,,,let me run this past you. I have a few ideas for saving energy. First is wind power. The big disadvantage to wind power is battery banks and inverters. How about this. A small wind mill driving a 40 amp alternator. The current flows directly to a hot water tank incorporating 115 v heating elements [ There is such a thing]. Right away the system could care less about frequency. So no battery packs required. So the water is heated , but not to a very high temp, say 150 DEG F. From there the water is circulated through hot water base board heaters controlled by a thermostat. I think it could augment conventional heating systems. I have not worked out the specifics. It's simpler and a lot less dangerous then trying to produce and store Hydrogen. I do believe Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Hell it should have been here 20 yrs ago.
Second on a larger scale. I was reading that in some area's of the world, tide activity varied by as much as 25 ft . Can you imagine building a walled tidal basin that would retain the water from high tide then release it at low tide through a turbine system. The turbines could work in both directions. Just some thoughts on a rainy Sunday morning. :bigthink:

You don't use pure distilled water.
I just can't figure how to control the out put from the bubbler to carb.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/938147...usehold_items/

Eagle Keeper

As mentioned before changing the chemistry is always a loosing battle, you would be much better of to use the suns heating power to heat the water, or a glycol fluid used as a heat exchanging source than you would not have to spend the money on the wind powered conversion. I have plans off the net, mixed with a few of my own to build a solar powered water heater, I just never got around to it with my many other projects including a 4 year old little girl who is my princess, and a 9 year old boy who ask 101 million gazillion questions about everything hotrod, lawn mower, tractor etc.... it will not be long and I reckon it will be women ?

Here is a link to a site that will keep you busy for awhile if you interested in capturing free-to very cheap energy. http://www.builditsolar.com/

Believe me Clint, when I build the windmill, it won't be expensive. I can scrounge up about everything I need. I'm not a fan of passive solar energy for one reason. It's ugly. To be most effective it has to be in the wide open spaces. If there was a way to incorporate it into the landscaping that would be better. Also the expense of glycol and heat exchangers. I just ordered two 20 Watt 12 Volt (Monocrystalline) Cells for the Feather Craft. They even look cool, like louvers.

:beatdeadhorse: Short story just to make a point. When I was in college one day in physics 101 we did conductivity tests with different liquids. Of every liquid we tried distilled water had the least. As I remember (oh god) it had almost zero conductivity. Later that day in a shop class the instructor said we were going to make a devise to free hydrogen from water by inducing a current in distilled water and the free hydrogen would get sucked into the intake and help power the engine. He then laid out the plan. I must have had a stupid look on my face because he looked at me and said what is the problem? I stuttered a bit not knowing what to say. Finally I said "Is this a test?" When he asked what I meant, I explained about the tests we had done earlier. Feeling a bit braver I said you should at least try it with saltwater. End of Story. Don't get discouraged. It won't work but if you pay attention to what you are doing.. you'll learn something.

Hello
I don't mean to get back in to this but since distilled water won't conduct electricity isn't that why you add the baking soda to it?( I still don't plan to do this)

I think the windmill is viable. I have often thought, not for long, of farming methane to use for about free energy. I always give up at the point where it would be collected and stored:bash2:. As you all know the raw material is everywhere:biggrin2.gif:. Great discussion guys.:beerchug:

I just realized I made my post after reading the first page and did not see page two! Duhhhh.

I guess this guy is gone. Couldn't take the logic...

I'll chime in.

I have been messing around with different hydrogen generators this last year. Had great results from some while others didn't work. Now I found a good viable design.

As for distilled water...NO is doesn't conduct electricity but add some Potassium hydroxide(KOH) and you will see a world of difference.

WARNING! KOH is dangerous to handle take precaution!

I built a mini generator that I wish to install on my Cub.

Here is a pic.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...nerator024.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...nerator027.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...nerator029.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...nerator004.jpg

I haven't had a chance to install it yet because I am working on bigger designs but am curious how the Kohler will run with a good boost.

Chase

:American Flag 1:

It's just not a boost, for this to work the entire platform would have to be designed for the mean datum point of hydrogen being used all the time, this would mean a electrical system from wiring to charging capacity incorporated into the the design of the engine, and then you must take into account compression ratios, timing, material being used in valves, pistons, and if you get more power that means all things transmitting that power will need to be designed for this.

Now back to the point, anytime you convert energy you loose energy, it's a fact that can not be ignored, if your converting "water" into hydrogen you are loosing energy in more than just one place, charging system being one, then you must calculate the loss of the gas converted to electrical, then the electrical to hydrogen, and it could get real in depth on, and on.

However if one wanted to design a engine to obtain certain characteristics using hydrogen to do so, I would then commend the person for experimenting, however as above a hydrogen generator will be less efficient every time when used in a "adapted" application.

All that said, I'm interested in the outcome, and wish you luck, research, and document for those of use that our brains starve for information.

I'm guessing that the perceived or real results were the result of the environment. That being a warm day vs. not as much moisture. The warm day would have more oxygen and seem to run better. You might want to incorporate weather conditions in your record keeping. Good luck you could be the next ga-zillionare.

Well thanks a lot guys! I have no idea what you are all talking about and it makes me feel really stupid. I'm calling my therapist.:callyou:

For the Cub to use it it needs to dedicate 4-5 amps continuous. It will need an on/off switch to the hydrogen generator. The Cub's charging capacity is rated at 15 amps at full power, not using lights or PTO there won't be a burden on the charging system at 4-5 amps.

As far as compression ratios, timing, material being used in valves, pistons there isn't enough hydrogen introduced to change the thermodynamics of the engine. Hydrogen does burn 3 times faster then gasoline however this facilitates the complete burn of gasoline. Gasoline's typical efficiency goes from 25% of the fuel used to power to almost a 100% when hydrogen is introduced. Since gasoline is the dominant fuel for this application there is no other modification needed to timing. If more hydrogen is used to the point it it the dominate fuel then timing must be retarded to accommodate hydrogen's use, if not then the engine will ping, predetonate, ect. That won't be the case. This little generator will produce about 300 ML per minute which is more then adequate for this little motor.

When hydrogen is introduced into a motor one will notice the engine will run quieter and run smoother, even diesels. I'll wonder if that happens to the kohler.

You see, I use to think this was a scam and was "snake oil". A friend gave a hydrogen generator that he was done messing with. I looked at it, it was a 4" PVC pipe with two pieces of rolled stainless steel. Cost about $15 dollars to make. I installed it on a 93' Chevy truck 4X4, 5 speed. To my surprise my mileage went from 11 to 14mpg around town. from 16 to 18 mpgon the highway. I couldn't believe it! The engine had more torque and it ran smooth and quiet. it only cost around 15 $$$ to make this. I could spend 3 thousand dollars and not improve mileage like that. That is what got me jump started in this hobby.


Yes it does create energy to create energy and this isn't perpetual...where as I can create hydrogen on demand to fuel the vehicle 100% by the vehicle's charging system can't be done. However, the vehicle's charging system can produce enough hydrogen to gain 30-50% increase in fuel mileage. It can go further with electronic devices such as Pulse Width Modulator that gives a generator the same amount of production with 30-40% less energy consumption. I won't have a PWM on the cub.

The rule of thumb is for every 10 amps there is one liter per minute of hydrogen production. I need at least 3 liters a minute to give a good boost in fuel mileage for my Suburban, that will need 30 amps to power the generator which the stock charging system can sustain. If I want more production, I will have to increase the amps but that puts a bigger burden on the Alternator. I do have options like an higher output alternator, add another battery all to accommodate more hydrogen production for more fuel mileage. I can even add an underdrive pulley to the alternator to decrease parasitic drag. The first thing for me is to add another battery. But if I can go from 13 MPG to 20 MPG then it's worth it. I can go higher if I wish to modify the electrical system further. I have a new generator I'm building for this application.

Technically, you can use any engine. The key issue is retarding the timing to accommodating that faster burning hydrogen because unlike gasoline, hydrogen burn focuses more on the POWER stroke rather then compression/power stroke. I have yet to see anyone do it just hear urban legends of them doing it then they mysterious die from hired assassins from OPEC...HA Ha! just kidding. I haven't seen anyone do it on straight hydrogen. another issue on running an engine on straight hydrogen is corrosion. When hydrogen burns it re-combines with oxygen molecules forming water and goes out the tail pipe as steam. Some this moisture corrodes the inside of the cylinder when the engine sits for a couple of days. so there needs protections to prevent this. I'm far from that and don't count on getting to that point soon.

Thanks for the push LOL!

NASA experimented with this back in 1977 on a caddy 472 engine. Here is the link:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf

Take care,

Chase

:American Flag 1:

They were actually bad designs. Took too much amps like 25 amps and got half a liter/minute of hydrogen production that won't cut it. If i can't get 1 liter/ minute per ten amps with a PWM then I'm not maximizing the current load per hydrogen production. Might as well keep the vehicle stock.

The pictures you see is a "dry cell". A dry cell isn't submerged in water like the traditional "wet cells where the plates were dunked in a reservoir of water. which wasn't precise in production because of bumpy driving conditions.

The dry cell isn't submerged hence the name "dry cell". It has a water reservoir above it and circulates water on it's own with less amp draw. They are more expensive to make but it's a better design. The one you see has laser cut plates...I know someone with a laser...LOL!

Really, there are the "good the bad and the ugly in designs out there. You have to find the good one!

Chase

:American Flag 1:

Boy I really know how to stir up some CRAP:biggrin2.gif:

I bet we can really "stir the pudd'n" about IH Cub cadet verses John Deere...LOL!

B1 Jet Tech. You poor man ! The B-1 is the best Aces II ejection platform ever created ! If the unused output from the generator is being used to produce H ,,then isn't that producing a load on the engine ? Using even more fuel ? If it produced more energy then what it used to augment it , then it would be a perpetual motion machine . Correct ? I'm a Hydrogen guy all the way. The only way to make it work is converting it from Hydro, Solar, Geo thermal and wind. You can't take a hydrocarbon fuel, burn it , produce energy and have a net gain. Ain't happening.

The F-15 said to the B-1 "I can out run you!"

The B-1 said to the F-15 " I can shut down two engines and still fly home, can you do that?" LOL! HA HA!...Just Kidd'n!

I love the B-1 along with the B-52, they are the "Big Beautiful women" (BBW) I so admire...


As far as current load. I have a generator that needs 30 amps to power. How much HP is needed to generate that additional 30 amps? Off the top of my head I cannot remember but it would take a few horses of parasitic drag.

If it's a 5% loss in HP due to parasitic drag is offset by the 10-20% horse power increase from hydrogen introduction but all that varies vehicle age and wear n' tear. The gain in horsepower also comes from the gasoline reaching a 100% burn efficiency.

There are many ways to get energy to make hydrogen. Like the examples you mentioned plus the host vehicle's electrical system which delivers the best bang per buck in hydrogen production with out further mods.

What I admire about this form of hydrogen production it creates hydrogen while you drive and stops when the vehicle is turned off. Hence "hydrogen on Demand". When hydrogen is stored you have a potential bomb because compressed hydrogen is what the H-bomb in waiting. On top of storage, hydrogen will re-bond with oxygen over a period time unless it's cooled to _ 200 plus degrees.

Chase

:American Flag 1: