To tell or not to tell
 

Recently I bought a tractor from another OCC member. The tractor had some issues That I am pretty sure he knew about but did not disclose. So here is the question. Should you disclose problems with a tractor or leave it up to the buyer to find the issues for them self.

When I sell a tractor I try to address as many of the issues that it has before I even list it, I don't sell junk and if I am selling junk I make sure whoever is buying it knows all the issues that I am aware of.

That's pretty low. I'm like Tim, I try and tell everything that I know about the machine.

A couple years ago I bought a 1641 from a member that "It just needs a tune up" yep it needed a new engine. Buyer beware. :BB&YS:

I play it straight when I sell something. Not worth trying to screw someone. :beerchug:

I have sold only 3. I have gone above and beyond on each one and no buyer has complained. Need to sell a couple now. I inform intended buyers of everything known and price accordingly.

I tell the potential buyer about everything I am aware of, tractor or otherwise. I’ve been on the other side of the fence before, and it sucks.

I don't care if its a bale of hay or a piece of equipment, I let folks know whatever I know about the item. Very rare does someone come to look and not buy.

I sold a Chevy S-10 4.3 to a neighbor just over two years ago,,, $1,000,,,
JUST this past Saturday,, he complained to me that a coolant carrying metal tube that is next to the intake manifold was leaking,,
and he was complaining like I should do something to help him get it fixed,,,, :bigeyes:

So, this goes both ways,,,

I say buyer (or seller) beware, if you are expecting perfection,, go to Home Depot, not the forum, or Craigs List,,, :bigthink:

P.S. If the OP paid $4,500 or more for a 1968 Cub Cadet, and it was not correct,, tell us about it here.
If the OP paid under $1,000 expect there to be issues.

In between,, I do not have an answer,,,,

As a seller it is only right to tell everything you know about the item being sold to the potential buyer.

As a buyer, you have to take what a seller says with a grain of salt, it should be pretty easy to tell if someone is sincere or looking to offload a piece of crap.

When dealing with older equipment like these older tractors, the seller could be honest and sincere, and then a month or two down the road something happens to it... this is to be expected in my opinion with used equipment, and not a con job.

Personally, I am as honest a seller as they come, if someone buys something from me and then they have a problem with it, I can guarantee it was something I didn't know about. For example... I once sold a Kawasaki KZ305 motorcycle that I rode to work in the summers in nice weather, and put a lot of work into over the years. Then two days later I receive an email from the buyer telling me that the clutch stopped working and it left him sit. I got his address and went to his house the next day to look at it with him, and found that the clutch cable broke inside the housing. I helped him locate the replacement part and replace it, and he was happy.

I sold a Dodge Grand Caravan very cheap last summer that had rusted out rocker panels to a kid who was down and out and needed something to get him to work for a couple months, through connections his boss is good friends with my father in law. I told him everything up front, and that he only had a few months on it because inspection was due in January, and it would not pass due to rust. Three months later I get a call from my father in law telling me he blew the engine because there was no oil in the engine. He drove it for three days with the engine knocking and his boss said it doesn't sound right, so he checked the oil and saw it wasn't even on the stick. They put 4 quarts in it to get it back to full, and on the way home that very day the engine failed and now the van is in a junk yard somewhere. That van never leaked a drop of oil for me, and I had it for 6 years and changed the oil regularly. I know where he lived and where he worked, and he worked 5 days a week. I figured out by simple math how far he would have probably driven in that time just to and from work, and it would have been about 7000 miles. No way I could have been in any way responsible for that.

So, S@#$ happens sometimes. I have a conscience, and I think most people do... but there is always one person out there to ruin trust for everyone. I've been on both sides, if I buy something privately used and it has more issues than were disclosed, I feel like that is something I should have seen and missed, so it's on me to fix or deal with.

I've been down that road before. I sold a car to my aunt about 15yrs ago and after 8 month she came back with a list of about 20 things she expected me to fix, I told her I wasn't fixing it and I've been a little bit of a black sheep since then but I don't really care. Now I'm only sell cars to strangers.

I disclose as much as I know about the tractor to the customer, that way I enter and leave the deal with "clean hands" (and a clean conscious). It's the Golden Rule! For a tractor, I give the customer a warranty, even on old IH cub cadet. I state to them that they have 6 months if a stranger or 1 year if I know them. They can bring it back and get a complete refund or I can fix whatever is wrong with it, at my discretion. The buyer must use proper maintenance, though. (S)He cannot run it without oil or drive it through a river, etc. In the last 10 years, I have only had 1 come back to me and the purchaser, my nephew, got a full refund of his purchase price. Not worth losing a friend over a couple hundred bucks.

I've had a sponsor on this forum sell me the incorrect part. At first I was upset, but just made it work and went about my way. Let your conscious be your guide...

Cub Cadet 123

I don't even think this question is up for debate.

I think that the seller has the absolute responsibility to disclose every known issue. I sold a JD 110 a month ago and dang near talked him out of buying it because I was going through every minute detail of what was wrong with it. I even told him that two of the lug bolts did not have the original "JD" stamped on them. He seemed to be a collector, so I wanted him to know everything.

As stated already in this thread, honesty is the golden rule of doing business.

I too always go out of my way to disclose any issues.

Is the leaking seal the only issue you have with the tractor? Has it leaked since the day you got it?

Tim I did not use the tractor the first summer I had it. I started using this past fall when my Z turn was down. So far I have had to rebuild the carb, replace the plug behind the ignition switch, replace one front tire. Now I have the oil leak from the pics you can see it did not just start leaking. Also this past weekend the bolts on the seat fell out as well as the bolts on the bracket that holds the hydro to the frame. The pump was moving up and down a full inch. I have since tightened everything up.

Let me see if I have this story straight Charles you bought a tractor that is at least 29 years old, the last 2072 was built in 1989 according to the info I have. You bought this tractor in 2016 and now your upset with the seller because it has an oil leak, seriously? I think you are being totally unreasonable. :biggrin2:

Sam you misunderstood my point totally. I am not upset at all. I only listed the problems I had because Tim asked. I certainly expect issues with a tractor this old. From looking at the motor under the shroud it seems to me that it had been leaking for a long time ( more than When I had it )as I said I really have not used it until recently. Thus my original question do you disclose or not. The member I bought it from stated in another thread that it was not leaking when he sold it to me. At this point I have no reason not to believe him. Sam no anger here at all except maybe at my self since physically I am unable to fix the darn thing myself right now.

You've been talking about selling the super's, if i were you and i couldn't do the repair myself i would sell it off to someone else, I might even be interested.

With the tractors that I have sold, I have been completely honest with any issues that I knew of. I do make it a point to tell any buyers to check the machine over throughly themselves. Opinions can differ greatly on what's good condition and what's not. I personally like tractors that are listed as "restored" with a brushed on paint job and nothing done mechanically as an example. The buyers are welcome to run it, drive it around, even mow with it if they want too. I will even offer to jack it up if they want to get a good look underneath. I am very clear before they buy, it is being sold as is. When it goes down the road, it's down the road and it's not coming back.

What he said, times 300 down the road.

Decency says that you tell everything or problem you know about the item based on your ability , but in real life when buying something "Caveat Emptor"
Oz

Yep once Da Cash Be In Da Sellers Hand and Da Item be in Da Buyers Possession It's A Done Deal. :biggrin2:

I tell the potential buyer what work was done, offer pictures of the work done.
I ain't going to blow smoke up their skirt, here's the tractor, the work that was done, what I know about it.
Then it's up to them if they want it or not. As is, where is. Have never had a complaint. None of us can predict the future...
I've brought a few home, that should have been left where they were, but I had blinders on, and didn't notice issues until it was to late. And as far as I'm concerned, no one to blame but myself.

Bought my daughter a Oldsmobile Alero with a 4 cylinder. She had it for 3 hours and I get a phone call. The car had quit. It would crank and not start. Had it towed to my buddies shop. Timing belt had gone bad and ruined the motor. I didn't even say anything to the person I bought it from. I know from past issues with a similar car, you have no idea that it is going bad. Some stuff does happen.

Haven't sold any of mine (actually traded a parts machine last week) but I'd tell problems up front. That said all the things listed that the tractor in question needed seem normal to me. Actually, that list seems pretty short in reality compared to what I've had to do on the rigs in my fleet.
I bought my 86 as a non runner, from a small engine shop in town. All I got from him was it didn't run, but would turn over. Had no battery. Ended up with a broken rod (I got it cheap enough).
Not sure why he couldn't just tell me it had a broken rod, but whatever. I wanted it either way.

Holy crap. Ss5150 Where have you been?

I buy all mine not running. Cheaper that way, and I know what to expect. :biggrin2:

Yep, I agree. I have a pretty good track record of buying Cub's that were left for dead and after minimal work they run great, my 784 is a prime example.

I used to pick women that way, thinking they'd have a better chance of sticking around... :biggrin2:

About twenty years ago I sold a Lincoln to a fella that owned and operated a auto repair and body shop. He ask me if I would mind if one of his mechanics went over the car. I gave him the keys and told him to take his time. A couple days later he came back satisfied and bought the car. About a week to 10 days later he showed up on my front step screaming and cursing that the transmission went bad in the car and I was going to pay for it. This all in front of the neighbors that were having a party outside at the time. He said I had to know about the issue. I asked him if him or his mechanic noticed any problem he said no. He was threatening me as well as my property at this point. I asked him to hold a minute as I went back into the house and got a telephone as well as put my HK USP 40 on my belt. I told him this could go several ways and he was the one choosing which way that was. 1. We could call the Police as he was now trespassing. 2. He could file a civil claim at the magistrates office and I would gladly abide by their decision. 3. He could just leave and forget this ever happened or 4. Something very very stupid. As I said # 4 I placed my hand on the HK. He got in his car still cursing and yelling. I called in a favor from a buddy of mine that does transmissions and had him do the work for the cost of parts plus $150. The guy was thrilled and we are friends still today.

Ok Steve, so I have a question for you:

So, on that 1641 you have, you never said if the crank pistons and rods were new. Assuming the crank was used, and the other parts were new (I'd still like to know what parts, if any, were new) are you going to disclose you did a half assed overhaul on the motor before you sell it? Or are you just going to state it was "overhauled". If it spins a rod on that crank 20 hours after the sale, are you going to fix it for the buyer? I'm not nearly as interested in what you tell a buyer, as I am whether you stand behind your work.

I answer any question truthfully when selling, provide detailed descriptions and pictures in my ads, and stand behind any work I did with a guarantee. By hours, miles or a given time period. Otherwise the sale is final. If I didn't work on the brakes, they are "as is". If I didn't replace a seal, it is "as is".

When buying, I assume the seller is FOS. Too many "mechanic wannabes" out there. I try to avoid those people and go after the "mechanic specials", and I never complain to the seller later about any problems.

Now, if you are buying from a dealer that put the item through a "thorough check list" and it is "good to go" , that's different. Now they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. But generally speaking individuals simply have no idea. It's not that they are trying to be dishonest..... they honestly just don't know any better. Gotta take the good with the bad buying from an individual.

That is an incredible story. :biggrin2:

From what my neighbor tells me it was quite the scene. He brings it up often. One time years later he was amazed to see the guy at my house visiting.

Do you need my replaced parts inventory list? I used a used crank, used pistons and used rods from a low hour donor engine (as in the rods pistons and crank from the same donor engine) and it was NOT disclosed to me why the donor engine was cracked apart and sold in pieces but the parts looked in great condition, and new rings, honed cylinders, new seals, new crankcase gasket, and new head gaskets. If I sell it, it won't be for a while down the road, well past 20 hours... and yes, if I sell it, all that will be disclosed that it was rebuilt with these parts at 560 hours. I have put 6 hours on it already, it starts right up and runs strong, and does not smoke. And lastly, I'm not getting into another rock fight on this board, and on someone elses thread... but you always just assume everything I do is "half assed". By the way, that hydraulic steering cylinder still does not leak and it is working fabulous... :bigeyes:.

Since you used 20 hours after the sale as an example, how many hours do you think is good use after a sale for something to happen and not be the sellers fault? And if applicable, how many hours should I run it before selling it for you to feel comfortable with my work before I sell it. If I run it for 200 hours, and everything is fine, and I sell it, and it breaks 20 hours after the sale, is that still on my "half assed" rebuild in your mind? Should I run it another 500 hours before I sell it to make sure my "half assed" work is good? You tell me... I am not about to slap something together and sell it right away, and say "yep this thing is good as new, never had a problem with it", and then say too bad if something goes wrong with it.

Well Steve, that is a loaded question.
Putting used parts on an engine isn't a "rebuild" it is a repair. I've got a Deere I plan to sell. KT17 Series I motor. Burns oil faster than gas. I plan to put on another set of jugs (used) and sell it. I'll probably put 4 or 5 hours on it and put it up for sale. I will disclose the repair and probably offer a 30 day warranty as there is no hour meter on it. On a repair like you made, like it or not, it is half assed. Mine will be too, but I admit that. The tractor and engine neither one are worth a new engine, and I wouldn't make a dime selling it if I put a new engine in it. A time limit (30 day) warranty is the only safe way to go on that for both you and the seller.

Now, on a new engine, like I build and sell, I still do time limits, as I have no idea if the machine it's going in has an hour meter, or how many hours the buyer uses the machine. Also, I seldom build up complete running engines. Since I'm not the one putting on the carb and setting the timing, I can't give much of a warranty. What if the carb is set too lean and it scores a piston? That's not my fault. So, I give a 30 day limited warranty that is subject the return and tear down of the engine. If my parts or workmanship failed, it's on me. If the valves are white, and the top edge of the cylinder is melted.... not my fault, it's on the buyer. If I was to build up a complete running engine I tuned, I'm not afraid of a 1yr, 100 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

I've only ever had 2 motors that I had to warranty after a rebuild. They weren't for lawn tractors, and neither left my possession. One was a B5.9 Cummins that I failed to completely torque 2 rods in. Started knocking 5 min after its initial start. The other one was a 4.0L Jeep. We think it had metal stuck in an oil jacket from the previous failure that washed into the rod bearing on #6. Block had been tanked and properly cleaned. Started knocking on the test drive, so I drove it longer than normal to diagnose it. I ended up stopping and towing it to avoid further damage.

So.... how long a warranty should you give? None if you aren't comfortable with it. Nothing wrong at all selling something "as is". But I think if you want to buy and rebuild things to sell, then you should offer a warranty. 30 days is more than fair. I've sold plenty of things "as is".

Bahahahaha!:ROTF1:

OK kids play nice. :biggrin2:

Great answer Jonathan. Here's another example I just remembered of my standing by my work. Someone brought me an old Snapper tractor to work on last summer, the starter was fried. I forget the tractor model, but it's an old one, with a Briggs opposed twin engine in it. I replaced the starter for $20 over the cost of the new OEM starter. He took it home and mowed with it several times. Called me back a month later saying the starter is making a grinding sound and not working. I told him to bring it back to me. I looked at it, and the starter bolts came loose and the starter ground the plastic gears off. I replaced the starter gear, and locktite'd the bolts to hold it in and didn't charge him a thing because I didn't know if I just didn't get them in tight or they came loose on their own somehow, he still gave me $20 for the additional work but I didn't charge him and I even told him that wasn't necessary because it might have been my fault.

As for my engine rebuild, I think you and I have different definitions of "half assed" and "rebuild". Putting back together an engine that is broken inside with whole used parts qualifies as a "rebuild with used parts" in my opinion. Half assed would be something like if the rod went through the side of the engine and cracked it, if I would go and "weld" or something like that to seal it up. Obviously that's extremely half assed. Or, when splicing an electrical wire just twisting two wires together and wrapping with electrical tape rather than using a crimped butt terminal for the correct wire gauge with heat shrink to splice a wire would be an example of a half assed repair. These definitions could come down to splitting hairs too, just like the original topic of discussion.

I don't use the term LOL, because I rarely laugh out loud like an idiot. But I just did. That was hilarious.

The old cubs are alot like women to me as well the ones that may look rough may suprise you how nice they really are. On the other hand you find a beautiful machine that looks flawless may give you nothing but trouble. Seriously though I prefer to buy non rummers (cheaper) and when I meet a seller im kind of a quiet guy by nature I usually dont say a word just start looking the tractor over and 9/10 times the seller just starts talking. I never really sold anything though.