1250 Coming to a crawl / stalling out under load
 

It's been a while since I've been on here but poked around briefly before posting this and noticed a lot of familiar faces still posting, so hello to everyone again.

I had someone rebuild the engine in my 1250 a couple years ago and once I got it back in the tractor and hooked it up, things looked good until I started to try to use it like I normally would (beat the hell out of it, put it through the runner, etc.) and it would begin to crawl, then eventually stall out.

I feel like this is a self-inflicted problem and honestly hadn't gone back to it until recently when I had some time, so I got it running again today, fixed my silly PTO issue (one of the cables running to a fuse fell off the spade connector), and started to get something hooked up to it to test with (threw a agrifab rake on it for now), realized my hydraulic levers are frozen and need to go about getting those freed up, but on to the issue:

I can't remember if it really had this much thrashing/movement to it at idle [I do know the exhaust hood is missing some screws that adds to the drama on the thrashing], but it goes away a bit at higher throttle, however I noticed it throttling up/down just sitting there, opened the hood and noticed it was doing just that. I've messed with the throttle cable a couple times to shorten it up/lengthen it and still have this issue, but I think this would also cause some issues when I'm actually trying to use it (leveling the driveway with the box blade would even stall it after about 15-20 feet).

Would this most likely be the cause of my woes? Any good ideas on how to fix this? I feel like I may have reassembled it wrong, I noticed the spring at the bottom when the throttle is at low is slack, though it is taut when at high throttle.

Video of it running and me putting my finger on the throttle to hold it there:

https://goo.gl/photos/HaTVY4hboTGhgg8M8

Going to try and figure it out tomorrow as it's getting dark now, but I have a feeling this is at least the start of fixing the issues.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

QuietLines Shake! However, when you had the engine out did you replace the engine mounts? Did you do the cradle mod? I have found that the OEM mounts work the nicest to reduce vibration if adjusted properly. I am however, going to use solid mounts on my next overhaul (1650).

I clicked on the video link you provided but it has no sound. I am curious to what extent was the rebuild? Did you or the rebuilder set the timing? Was the carb rebuilt and adjusted after the engine was warm and were you using fresh fuel? :bigthink:

I did replace the mounts before putting it back in. I think I used a pack I got off ebay. Not sure what the cradle mod is, so nope on that one.

Sound works for me, but I'll upload it somewhere else in a bit in case. Pretty sure it was just the gaskets / oil pan on the rebuild. It does sound fine IF the throttle isn't moving all over the place...so like I said, I'm guessing that's my problem but would not know if that would cause stalling issues (most likely would if there's no power and its trying to do something...)

Alright so took another look this morning, was able to get the hydraulic controls working easily enough with some penetrating oil on the bright side, on to the issue at hand:

Found that the fuel hose is rubbing a little at WOT, but I don't think that's the issue. Need to put a filter in there anyway, so grabbing that when I go to town today just to lengthen it up and get it out of the way.

The spring does need to be shortened I think as it's not quite taut, however I did find the following issues:

Had to keep the choke in the position you see in the picture to keep it running well at WOT, so probably need to adjust the carb a bit (? not sure, not very good with that stuff), but my main concern was when I shut the thing off some wisps of white smoke pour out of the carb intake. Would that be timing like you said Delta? Or is that a product of it running too rich or lean?

Picture should be attached as well (showing position of choke to keep it running)

1) Happy you were able to free up the dual stick controls!

2)If you are referring to the long spring below the carb...it can have slack at idle. Download the Kohler engine manual to see throttle and governor adjustment procedures including WOT speed.

3) You may want to have the carb cleaned or do it yourself if you are mechanically inclined,,,,again refer to Kohler K-Series engine manual.

4) Little wiffs of white smoke or normal at shut off especially if you shut off engine at higher speeds. These carbs do not have fuel shut-off solenoids like modern, EPA compliant carbs.

5) Timing again refer to Kohler K-Series manual.

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4630

Engine cradle modification link.:beerchug:

Thank you, spent some time today tinkering and things were going pretty well for a little over an hour of use after I printed section 6 of that manual and followed the instructions for setting the needles.

I didn't clean the carb, and due to the instructions saying to put a load on the motor while adjusting the needle in step 4 there, I changed over to the rototiller and turned on the PTO while I set that.

I had the tiller on so why not do the garden since the wife was asking me about it and that was one of the reasons I started looking at this again. Was able to till the thing and was doing one last clean pass along some grass, ran it to the end and the ground turns pretty hard/rocky (it's where I haven't tilled in past years) so the thing just stalled and turned off rather abruptly. Figured that was a sign that I was done for the day and started up the hill with the PTO off, half speed, and the thing just stalled abruptly again.

Figured at this point something serious was probably wrong so I wanted to leave it but it was on a hill and rather than just let it drift back down I started it again and got it to the top and shut it off.

It was not acting like before where it would get all sluggish (struggling) and stall though, both times it just abruptly turned off -- not sure if it's an overheating issue now?

They are just small wisps of white smoke, so I'll take it that is normal.

(Yes I know I should have a belt cover on the tiller)

Thank you, that's rather simple. Is there a significant improvement? I would assume so as it's structural.

To answer your question yes. The oil pan mounting bosses are not damaged because of loose and/or missing mounting bolts. The engine will stay anchored resulting in less wear and tear on the driveline too. This, of course, depends on the mounts being installed properly.

You may want to remove the carb to clean and inspect it...Check your fuel tank for crud and debris too. You may have some debris that could be restricting fuel flow. Does the engine seem to run hotter than normal? If yes you need to address that issue. Causes for overheating...1) Lean fuel mixture, 2) Incorrect ignition timing, 3) Fins around block are cluttered with debris or rodent's nest, 4) Exhaust valve sticking. If one or any these conditions exist you will damage the engine. Some care and maintenance will help long term.

I think you need to go back and give us all the details as to what was done to the motor and if you or someone else did the work. You mentioned rebuild but then said just gaskets and such.

The choke needing to be partially closed could be the throttle shaft worn and sucking air causing it to run lean. Search throttle shaft bushing and you will see what you need there.

I am sure someone with more smarts than me about these motors will come along soon.




Randy

I didn't rebuild it and it's been quite some time, but it was done by someone who had a long time running business of only rebuilding small engines (this wasn't his first k301). He took it completely apart and fixed what needed to be done, but I am not 100% sure what it was as I don't remember the whole conversation with it being about 3 years later and I can't find the invoice at the moment (probably won't, either).

The reason I had brought it to him to be rebuilt in the first place was it was pouring oil. Turned out it was a cracked oil pan. That's why I'm assuming all that was done was gaskets as if I recall correctly he said it was in rather good shape other than the oil pan issue. In retrospect if I had known a lot more about it and inspected the oil pan I wouldn't of needed to rebuild it all.

The exhaust cover was taken off and painted at the time by the gentleman who did the motor as well.

I think with redoing the needles this morning I was able to fix the choke issue (it doesn't have to be half open to run properly at WOT).

I didn't do the carb because I figured I'd at least try the needles and things seemed to be going okay until about after an hour of use, but I'm seeing it repeated so I'll do that tomorrow or Tuesday when I get a chance.

My neighbor does have a john deere from the same year with the k341 and he said that it would quit after a while from overheating and one day it blew a hole in the exhaust and it fixed his overheating issue, so I'm wondering if painting the shroud (something the person who rebuild the motor did, he painted the whole thing with high heat engine paint) or something could be the issue with it shutting off after an hour.

If I have a thermal IR temp sensor, what is a good way to tell if the engine is overheating? Or is there a safe spot to just do a feel test?

I did add a fuel filter before I went to doing anything today too and it is fresh high test gas.

I'll pull the carb and clean/inspect it next.

All good points there from Ms DeltaCub and Randy "to tall" Littrell. :beerchug:

If it's not runnin' good it's time to start with the basics, pull the plug, it'll give you a good indication of how it's runnin'. Clean and or replace.

I think it's a Champion H 10 C or equivalent, gaped to .035".

Fresh fuel and clean fuel system is a must.

Rebuild the carb;

http://www.mgonitzke.net/cubcadet/to...rb_rebuild.pdf

carb rebuild kit (part # 25 757 02-S)

Randy's right about that worn throttle shaft, it'll cause the engine to hunt.

throttle shaft bushing (part # 25-158-02-S)

And what Ms DeltaCub said about engine timing, clean points and properly timed engine.

Get a set of new Points Kohler (part # 47 150 03-S)

And set the timing using the static method;

http://www.mgonitzke.net/cubcadet/to...tic_timing.pdf

Good luck..:beerchug:

And drain that hi test gas out and use regular unless you are running a hi compression race engine.
and FWIW,
most hi test you purchase is quite old,
I mean just how many ppl purchase it? :bigthink:
Hell it might be a couple of years old.

The only place I know of that it sells an unusual amount of race gas, is the sunoco station across the street from a local asphalt circle track during the racing season.:beerchug:

Hey, f.y.i: Those new Cub Cadet ISO engine mounts are different from factory o.e.m mounts. The new mounts assemble and adjust with simplicity and ease, the only major adjustment being how much to tighten down the lock nuts, in my experience.

Also, I read here a while ago, to spray carb cleaner into/onto the throttle shaft and note any engine speed up or slow down.

But for the main topic, I'd guess a condenser starting to give out. To me, if the engine starts over with out a lot of starter cranking, no major back fires, or over heating, and if the points are correctly adjusted, then I would not suspect timing.

Sounds more like a carb issue to me, as in surging.

Good point there by johncub7172.

and... the importance of proper engine block grounding cannot be over stated.

:popcorn::popcorn:


Anyone going to actually tell this guy something he needs to do to try and fix it? Or is everyone just going to post links and their wild guesses?

Why don't you guys give him a list of things to do to diagnose, or fix it.....

Worn out, or improperly adjusted ISO mounts can contribute to engine shake as can an engine that is not timed properly.

Improperly adjusted carb and or worn throttle shaft and bushing. Bad fuel. And,..

Re set the Governor. You can find information on this procedure on page 6.29 and 6.30 of the Kohler K series Service manual found here;

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...0422#post30422

How's that?:biggrin2:

Bad fuel, fouled plug, pitted/dirty points, worn/ out of adjustment carb, engine out of time, did I say re set the governor?

Overall sounds like just a lack of proper maintenance. I think we gave him a bunch of useful information to help him diagnose his own problem.

I would also add that the rebuild may not have been adequate..:bigthink:

Sorry martyrant, no offence intended.

I did replace the condenser already -- along with the regulator as well. Both are new.

I'm not experiencing the engine surging anymore. The only issue I'm having after adjusting the needles is that it randomly turned off after an hour of use. I think someone else had a good point that I was running high test gas in there, which of course would make it run hot... (we do get fresh high test around here, I do live next to a raceway so his other point there while valid most places isn't here). I'm going to drain that and try regular gas as well as pull the carb like someone else said.

Thanks twoton, it seemed like adjusting the needles fixed those issues after DeltaCub gave me the manual.

The issue I'm having now is that it turned off after an hour of use abruptly.

None taken, if it has to be done again I'll end up doing it myself with my neighbor (who's been rebuilding diesel engines for 50+ years) to make sure it's done right rather than having someone else do it this time.

Just trying to figure out if I can avoid rebuilding it (again) since it seemed to start working a lot better after adjusting those needles other than quitting after an hour of use.

Going to drain the gas like I said in my last post and clean/inspect the carb, I'll check the governor again but it seemed to be sitting ok.

Could be your coil is giving you fair warning...

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...707#post343707

Thanks twoton! I have also added an extra engine ground to my 1450, which will ground the engine to start with the starter cable ground removed.

After an hour of run time, and shutting off, could it be carbon deposit? Might need to remove the head, and inspect the situation. If we have an exhaust valve moving slowly, we will loose a certain amount of piston compression, and slow down the 1250 to a crawl. Try a compression test? I recommend to start using Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel. This stuff will begin to clean up the combustion chamber. Being here since 2009, I have used this stuff off and on and have not ever experienced a slow down in my engines.

Only points of consideration, hopefully we can get some more good ideas on this 1250 scenario.

I'm not convinced you solved your lean condition (using the choke to keep it running) with some needle adjustments. Need to really clean the carb and the rest of the fuel system. Still too lean and getting hot.
Check the timing using the static method also.

I'm sorry.... I should have been more specific. DeltaCub was doing a fine job! :ThumbsUp:


martyrant:

I lost count of the number of time people suggested cleaning the carb (fuel system). I suggest you listen.

Stop saying this engine was rebuilt. Replacing an oil pan and gasket is not a rebuild. Unless you can find proof, or remember what was done, you need to quit saying it was rebuilt. Honestly, I don't know how you could not remember if a motor was just repaired or overhauled. Quite a difference in price. If you didn't pay $700 to $1000 it didn't get overhauled, it got repaired.

I watched your video. Your quite the fool. You held that governor nearly at WOT. Are you trying to blow up your engine??? The engine is governed, and it is only designed to run up to at 3600 RPM. After that, you have to replace key parts to make it run faster. You revved it far over 4000 RPM. Your lucky it didn't fly apart. Keep your dang finger off the throttle unless you know what your doing, or unless you want to see what shrapnel from a cast iron flywheel feels like stuck in your leg. Good grief. :bash2: :bash2:


You really just need to do some fuel system cleaning and general maintenance to this thing. Go ask your neighbor to help. Use the service manual. Disassemble and clean the carb AND fuel tank. Replace the fuel line, install fresh gas. Reset the governor, adjust the valves. Replace the spark plug and the plug wire. Tune the carb to run on the motor after installation, not just to "factory specs". The screw positions the book suggests are just for a starting point. The book states that. Set the timing and clean the points. Don't gap them, set the timing. The books tells you how. If your neighbor is a good mechanic, he should know all that though. I think you definitely need some assistance in fixing this.

Go do all that and post back. You've had more than enough "help" to get starting doing something.




twoton:

Do you know how to explain anything on your own? Or do you have to post a link to other sites and other threads to accomplish every explanation you give? Why don't you try actually explaining something without using someone else's information. On another note, you used a cubfaq link to explain how to set and adjust the governor, yet DelaCub gave a link to the Kohler manual AND the OP said he downloaded it! Why not give him a page number or reference the service manual instead of another site? The manual should be the first place anyone looks for information.

Coil is new as well. Was replacing everything on this at one point and just stopped because life happened and I didn't have time to deal with it.

Hey J Mech, good to see you around still. I did pay $700 and I'm fairly certain it was rebuilt, but like I said, I didn't do it, I wasn't standing there watching the guy, and it was done by a reputable small engine repair shop run by one man who is still in business. I'm sure if I cared enough to go bother him he'd remember what he did, but it's been several years and I figure at this point it's my problem and not his. Sorry saying it was rebuilt seems to have rubbed a few people the wrong way.

I did admit I'm not the best with this, so yes, I can be a fool at times and after reading through the manual I did notice that it was governed at 3600 and it was a bad idea.

Pulled the carb today and it looked like it was done when the engine was as far as I can tell, there was no gunk build up, seals looked new... Little gunk in the bottom, but it's the least I've ever seen pulling carbs (granted I've pulled like 4-5 and remember, I am a fool when it comes to this stuff). I did notice when I pulled it that the main needle wasn't set where it really should have been (I didn't bottom it out apparently, didn't want to break it after reading the manual).

Anyways, can see where this has gone, thanks to everyone who helped so far--I'll figure it out on my own from here.

I don't know if it's been mentioned or not but I would pull the gas tank and flush it real good. Pull the petcock out of the bottom of the tank and make sure the screen is not plugged up with crud. I had a similar issue with my 149 but the screen was torn and the top of the petcock valve was plugged full of debris. Just another place to look because it sounds like a fuel issue to me as well. One other thing as well is to make sure there is no gasket remnants stuck on the carb or the mounting face of the engine. That will cause issues as well. BTDT :bigthink:

Good luck to you martyrant, let us know how it turns out. :beerchug:

Good point there cubs-n-bxrs.

There was not a darn thing wrong with my post, Jon. You seem to take the fun from the forum time and time again. Actually, my first post was a lot more helpful then your first post. I surly can tell you that I don't have the time you have to sit and try to help everyone out. My first post suggests a carb issue, and lo-and behold, we're on to that. Don't underestimate me.

That's a good one to remember.:beerchug:

Not sure why that's a problem,..:bigthink:

but, I fixed it.:beerchug:

Ok..... but in post #8 DeltaCub posted a link to the Kohler manual from the Kohler website, and the OP had already downloaded it. Why do you need to link to it again? Did you read the thread before posting?

You know what.... I'm just going to apologize to all. I was in a bad mood the other day. Lack of sleep I guess. I'm not making any excuses, just stating facts. Something about this thread rubbed me the wrong way, and I should have just passed on it. So, I'm sorry I jumped on you guys. You were all just trying to help. :beerchug:

You know, I was just worried that I had offended Ms DeltaCub by jumping in on the conversation.

So if I did, I'm sorry. You were doing a great job.:beerchug: