Cadet 1641 charging/voltage regulator help
 

I have a 1641 that is not charging. Have 29.8vac coming off the stator.

The regulator is new(aftermarket). When I connect to the red off the regulator and the frame, I get 0.0-0.1 dc volts. I believe I should be getting 13(ish), right?

I realize it's possible I got a bad regulator, but it does seem highly unlikely. Is there something besides the regulator I should check into?

Thanks.

Jbo

Rectifier/regulator has to have a good ground or it won't work.

AS A TEST....

Take a long jumper wire and connect one end to the Battery Negative ( - ) terminal. With the engine running at WOT, touch the other end of the jumper wire to the Voltage Rectifier/Regulator case (or housing) and see if your system starts to charge.

* If it does, you have a grounding issue.
* If it does not, you have a bad V/R.

Will try this test hopefully this evening. But the body of the regulator it metal and it's bolted in, don't really see how it can not be grounded.

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know.

Jbo

One other thing to check, unplug regulator with engine off, turn key on and check to see if you have same voltage as battery on the center terminal of the regulator plug in. Might have an issue with wiring or a bad ignition switch. My 1650 would not charge and it was a ignition switch that was corroded not allowing current to pass through. Get a copy of the wiring diagram and trace the wiring from the regulator to the battery positive and check at each connection.
Here is a wiring diagram copy. If you want a bigger copy do a google search for cub cadet 1641 wire diagram.
Hope this helps.
Tom


Attachment 84388

My regulator has two connections on one side(stator) and one on the other. Which one is the 'middle'?

Jbo

I have a lot of experience messing with Vanguard engines. This might be a dumb question (forgive me if it is), because I've done this myself before by accident and I have an electronics engineering technology degree... Did you make sure to switch your meter from AC to DC? I've done this accidentally more than once and was confused by the results before I realized I forgot to switch. If not, and it is still set to AC checking a DC line, you might see 0-.1 volts because of AC ripple getting through the regulator on the DC. Otherwise, there is nothing else but a defective regulator or faulty grounding getting in your way on this engine that I'm aware of. The alternator plugs directly into the regulator, so I don't think the ignition switch would be involved. :beerchug:

Well, sure, but Farmall referenced the 'middle' connection. ??

An EXCELLENT point sorner. I think I changed it, but would not be surprised if I didn't. Will verify test when I get home.

Jbo

On many/most it is the middle connector that is 12v.
Just make sure it's not one of the two going to the stator.

OK. Done that. Mine has a two plug and a single plug, so no middle. That was my confusion.

Jbo

Do the two wires from the alternator go to the double plug and the single wire is the output? The red/white wire is shown in the wire diagram going from the ign switch to the alternator. With the engine off and the key in the run position that wire should show battery voltage on your meter. if it does not then back track each connection until you find the issue. If it has battery voltage and you are getting 29.8 volts on the alternator terminals then the regulator is probably defective. As I said in my first post I just went through the same issue on my 1650. When I started back tracking the wiring I found that the Ign switch was not passing voltage to the wire to the regulator. As soon as I replaced the switch with a known good switch the alternator started charging. On a kohler regulator the three wires are all on the same plug the center wire is the output wire.

Volts A/C. Make sure it is A/C. It's very important to specify that coming off the alternator, it is A/C voltage. It's the only place on the machine that is A/C.

The two wire plug from the stator is AC across the pins. It's a yellow plug. The "middle" wire is probably the red wire out of the regulator.

A 1650 is a Kohler K341 isn't it? That's a totally different setup than a 1641 with the Briggs Vanguard engine. The regulator looks like this:

Attachment 84394

the yellow wires go directly to the alternator wires and the red wire comes out. There should be 12ish Volts DC there on that red wire regardless of the condition of the ignition switch while the engine is running because you would have it disconnected from the wiring harness to check the voltage. I'm a little confused by the wiring diagram myself...

So I retested and verified that I am definitely getting 29.8 volts AC to the regulator and 0.0 DC out the red wire.

I jumped from the battery negative to the regulator body and still got 0.0 volts DC.

So has to be a bad regulator, right?

Jbo

I think we already covered how to test it...... you tested it. It doesn't work. It's the only component between the alternator and the rest of the system.....

Seems that way.

Thanks much for the help. I'll get a new one on the way.

Jbo

From what I have learned from Sam Mac, the Briggs voltage regulators are not very good. Sam converts them to the better/more reliable kohler regulator. Pics/instructions/parts # in the below thread.

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...tor+conversion

Bill

[QUOTE=sorner;418776]A 1650 is a Kohler K341 isn't it? That's a totally different setup than a 1641 with the Briggs Vanguard engine. The regulator looks like this: The K341 uses the same regulator as the newer KT and Mag motors.

They all check out the same way and the Kohler regulator can be used a Briggs Vanguard engine, as per Sam Mac. The two outer wires on a Kohler regulator go to the stator wires the center wire goes to the red wire on the harness that was attached to the single wire on the old regulator. If you follow the wiring diagram you will see that the red wire ends up at the ignition switch and with the key on and engine off reads battery voltage and after the engine is started the voltage should rise and then slowly fall back as the battery is charged. With all of the wiring issues on the Cyclops tractors I would check out the wiring and Ignition switch before spending money on another regulator.

What?? He already proved the R/R is bad. If he's going to buy a new one, why not get the better R/R?? This isn't a wiring issue. It's a bad R/R. Now.... are there also wiring issues? Perhaps, but using a different brand R/R doesn't affect that any. Still have to have a good one before you can find and repair a wiring issue.

Jon, I am basing what I said on my experence with a bad ignition switch on my 1650. I tried three different regulators including trying one from a tractor that I know charges. Until I fixed the switch I could not get a voltage reading at the output terminal of the regulator with the engine running. I am only asking the OP to check to see if he has voltage to the wire that goes to the regulator from the switch with the key on and the engine off. I never said he should not get the better regulator if in fact it is proven that his replacement is bad. I just did not want to see him buy a kohler regulator and then find out he still has a wiring issue. It would take all of two minutes to take a meter connect it to the wire going to the regulator turn the key on and see if he has voltage. If he is not reading battery voltage at the output of the regulator when running then he has a wiring or ign switch issue. As I stated before key on engine off should read battery voltage, engine started voltage should go up to charge battery and taper back as it is charged. Do you not agree that there should be battery voltage at the output terminal with the key on and the engine off? The OP stated he had zero volts at the output terminal, if the wire was plugged in when he did the check it should have read battery voatage.
Have a wonderfull day:beerchug:
Tom

Tom,
There should be 12V coming out of the output terminal of the R/R. The OP tested the OUTPUT TERMINAL of the R/R and there is NO voltage on that wire. It does not matter whether there is any voltage going through the ignition switch. Yes, the electricity has to flow through the key to get to the battery, but if there is NOTHING coming out of the R/R then it is BAD.

Yes, I agree that there also needs to be voltage coming from the key to the R/R, but whether there is or not, that is a separate issue that has NOTHING to do with whether the R/R is bad or functions. He has already proven it has a bad R/R. I appreciate you trying to help..... but your not. I'm trying really hard to be nice about this. I really am. But it really frustrates me that you have seen an issue similar to this one time, and your arguing with an experienced mechanic. Believe me, I understand how the charging system works, and how to test it. I am certain that the test has been conducted correctly, and that the R/R is bad. After he installs the new one, if voltage still will not reach the battery, then we can begin testing for other separate issues. One thing at a time.

My interpretation of the posters test was that he had no wire hooked to the output, and was touching a wire from the neg of the batt to the housing.
Maybe I assumed this... IDK.

If the red wire from the regulator output is disconnected from the wire that goes to the wiring harness (and to the key switch?), there will be 0v unless it is running (if the regulator is working). I think Fred is saying that wire that goes to the regulator from the harness should have 12V with the key on, which is probably right. But if it doesn't, and it is supposed to, that is a separate issue. The regulator itself cannot have any voltage at the red wire if it's disconnected from the rest of the circuit, and the yellow plug connected to the alternator unless the engine is running and the alternator is generating AC.

I know how the system works..... I also think it's self evident that if the regulator is unplugged that it is dead. I also would think it's self evident that if the engine is not running, the alternator doesn't make power....

I figured you would know how the system works, being an experienced mechanic and all. I was trying to clear things up for non mechanics like myself. :coffee:

Ok... well... I don't think restating the info in your own words is helping, and the OP doesn't seem to be confused. However, if you guys keep taking off on tangents to the problem at hand, I think he will be confused shortly. Please.... if you know how to test components, and are familiar with the system, then help him. If you have seen one particular problem on one tractor one time.... well... that's not helpful. Although similar, or even exact same problems can occur on different machines, just because someone has a no-charge condition it does not automatically mean that that machine has the same problem yours did.


Unless you have a question, the OP has done the tests and confirmed that his R/R does not work. We now only need to wait for him to replace it and report back.

Still flummoxed. I returned the new regulator and got a replacement. Installed the replacement moments ago.

Still 29.5-29.8 Vac going into the regulator(checked on the regulator side of the connection just in case there was a problem with the connector.

Sadly, also still 0.0 coming out of the red wire on the regulator.

Again jumped from the battery negative to the bolt on the regulator just to make sure. No change.

Voltage across the battery is pretty consistent 10.51 volts.

I'm OK with the mechanical, but I'm not an electrical guy by a long shot. But even at that, this seems pretty simple to me. But I can't have gotten two bad voltage regulators in a row, could I?

Only three wires coming from the regulator. - two from the stator and one to the switch/battery. If energy is going in the two, it's got to be coming out the one, yes? There's nothing in between to tell it to charge or not. I can't see what else my problem could be.

And my grass is getting really tall. Can't keep up with the push mower. :)

I do appreciate the help.

Jbo

Clean the regulator mount point. It's not grounding. If the alternator is putting out, it has to be a ground issue.

I'm with Tom on this one. Unless the battery is connected to the output of the regulator it will not produce a voltage. Try connecting a wire directly from the battery to the regulator and you will find out the regulator is producing 13 - 14 volts. The regulator needs a load on it to work. A bad connection between the two and it won't work.

The regulator mounting point is clean as a whistle. Made sure of that before I installed it.

RL, You're suggesting I need to connect the POSITIVE on the battery directly to the regulator, not the negative? Is that right?

I think I get what you're saying about it needing a load(though I have to admit, it doesn't make much sense to me). Again, not an electrical guy.

Thanks.

Jbo

I see smoke on the horizon.

Here is the proper wiring diagram showing current flow from the regulator, be sure you have proper ground at the starter solenoid, clean the mounting tab for it, you should have a green (ground ) wire coming off the neg batt terminal going to the solenoid, then it jumps to the voltage sensor to ground it also.
Hope this helps

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9j...ew?usp=sharing

You need a connection from the output terminal of the regulator to the positive battery terminal.

OK. Jumped from the positive on the battery to the red DC wire on the regulator. Same 10.54 volts DC across the battery as before.

Checked from the red wire at the regulator (while jumped to the battery) and also got the 10.54 volts there, so my jumper connection was working.

Since I was there, I re-re-re-checked and still getting 29Vac from the stator to the regulator.

Still stumped.

Jbo

How fast are you running the engine?

Along with the jumper as you described above, you could try adding an additional jumper from the negative side of the battery to the case of the regulator just to rule out a possible flakey frame ground somewhere back to the battery.

Additionally, (I may have missed it) but have you tested out the battery? 10.5 volts sure looks like there could be a dead cell, and as others have previously pointed out, the load of the battery determines the output of the VR. You have a magneto ignition so that is not going to put any load on the battery. If the battery is only good for 10.5 volts, that all the VR will put out.

Just throwing out a few more thoughts, hope they help.

It might be possible that the stator is putting out 29 volts, but when you actually load it, by asking it to put out amps, it goes open
( broken wire) or to ground (shorted)

So I'm thinking while you have a hot jumper wire (+) from the battery, hooked to the output terminal of the regulator, and the engine is running 3600, check to see if you still have 29 Volts @ the 2 stator wires.
Do this by probing the terminals @ the regulator with the stator wires connected to it and the meter set on AC volts.
That test should tell if the stator has an intermittent problem while being asked to put out a charge.
-----About the only thing I can think of.:bigthink:

Agreed,a battery @ 10.5 V is dead.
It should not start the engine.:bigthink:
might substitute a good known battery from anything and give things a try.