Drive Line Clutch question
 

Can I use a drive clutch and hub from a 70 on a 1200? (yeah I know, narrow frame to wide frame/quiet line...) I'm talking drive clutch, not PTO here.

I'm not positive but I seem to recall that you can but you need to replace the engine mounts with solid mounts.

I have a set of those lingering around from when I tried them on a buddy's machine and they shook my fillings out, they were terrible on his 1200, but I have had several solid mounted Kohler powered machines and none of these seemed near as bad as that one tractor was.

Then there wa a likely another issue. It's the same 12hp as in a 129, just with a different starting and charging system.

Yes, you have to solid mount it to use a standard 3 pin driver.

I thought so as far as same engine from the 129,. I also have a couple of Ariens tractors with the single cylinder K series Kohlers that don't rattle news as much as my buddy's 1200 does....

The drive shaft is shorter on a narrow frame if my memory is working right. Cub Cadet has 2 different part numbers for the driveshaft.

Do yourself a favor....spend a few bucks and fix it the right way. There are several parts that are different between a Quietline and Narrow Frame IH Cub Cadet.

I still have the original 1200 driveshaft in good shape. It's the hub that bolts to the engine that is coming apart, I assume it is from old age and fatigue.

I plan to fix it right,, have another tractor (my son's) that can use this 70 clutch, but at least for now since I got the 1200 as a non running barn find, when I went to check it out upon bringing it home, I found the screw/pin that holds the governor gear laying among the muck along the frame. so I never tried to run it.
I don't yet know if this is gonna be a keeper, or a flip to fund the 129 which is definitely a keeper.
Further, at present, my plans are to fix the gov gear issue (I have a metal replacement gear already, using what I have on hand) replace all the associated gaskets from the bad governor gear repair, and not pull the piston and rod (cyl does look good!), reassemble the engine and give it a whirl. If this engine winds up being a smoker, the plans change.... looking at head and valves, the carbon buildup wasn't all that bad.
I am wanting to put the 70 clutch on it "for now" to try the tractor out and then see where things stand from there.

I got this and a 1650 that has no engine, as a package deal from a neighbor that was cleaning out a relative's barn getting ready to sell the property.....
I was hoping the 1650 had a motor, supposedly they had the 16hp rebuilt by a professional engine shop and "it didn't last a year" so it got pulled again and tractor pushed into a corner. they did not know much at all about this 1200..... and the relative that owned them, is no longer with us to ask....

Amen....

:IH Trusted Hand:

Until I figure out what I am gonna do with this machine, that is "on hold"/ I don't want to wind up with "$400 into a $250 tractor" so to speak until I know whether it will ultimately be a"keeper" or not....

$400 into a $250 tractor, makes it a $650 tractor.

If you are patient and do some research, hunt, and internet searching, you can find some really good deals.


:ThumbsUp:

only if I wind up keeping it.... if I don't, I wind up doing as I said, getting $250 out of something I have 400 (or more) into..... I am in a CL "desert" in the middle of 3 listing areas but "too far" from the main listing area of any of them. everyone tells me "I'm too far to go" for what ever I have to offer. ... gets old. yet I haveto go just as far when I want to buy something, doesn't make sense to me, either.

I agree w/Merk, fix it right and keep it.

My 1200 w/OEM mounts and drivetrain is one of the smoothest running quiet Cubs I have.

Well I have a bunch, am always looking for more, plus a wife that wants me to thin the herd..... so at this point what will be kept and what will go is still to be determined, I am lucky enough to have a friend who has an extra barn that I am able to store things in but between the distance from home (about 30 miles) and the constant fight to keep them varmints from making themselves at home within my machines, it's a wait and see game to see what stays. Along with my own I get to maintain the barn owner's 1200 and his 1250.

Great, getting more involved than I had hoped to on this machine, pulled the engine apart to check out the governor gear as the retainer screw for it was laying on the frame next to the motor, got the crank out w/o pulling the piston and rod, but somehow I couldn't get it back in the same way. Popped the piston out and saw the top land ate up pretty bad,. So now block is heading to the machine shop at lunchtime today. Wasn't​wanting to do a whole rebuild on this one
Last k301 I did I wound up with over $500 into, used all OEM parts on that one. I have been afraid of the eBay kits, I am going to try one on this machine and hope for the best. I just hate Chinese made parts... They are usually crap.

You have no idea what your talking about.

Quite a bit of the stuff the guy I buy from are Stens. There are other brands too, but they are all good quality parts.

I can't tell you how many of those kits I've used and never had an issue. There's nothing wrong with aftermarket. It doesn't have to be made in the USA to be good. Lots of good things come out of other places. Sure, I wish we could always buy American, but we can't. This isn't a good place to rant about that though.

I just put one of them Chinese rebuild kits in a k 241. Can't speak for longevity but it sure is a smooth running, strong engine!!

just the fact that it is aftermarket isn't the point. I use aftermarket parts in my job as an auto mechanic all the time, I remember a time when there were no aftermarket options for Kohler engines/ and I wished there were. I wonder why Sealed Power or Perfect Circle couldn't have been selling Kohler and Briggs parts, under their own label, right alongside parts for a 302 Ford engine, or a 350 Chevy.... but car parts aren't what they used to be, either.... many well known companies, if they even still exist, are shells of their former selves.
this has added to my leery-ness of trying aftermarket parts for these engines. but I cannot see the reason for a single OEM piston for a Kohler costing as much as a set of 8 for my truck, either.

yup I do usually buy when I see a "good deal" and pigeon hole the parts for a "rainy day"...
I got the results from the machine shop and was quite surprised... std everything can go back in..and it don't need guides, of which I do have here already. so I ordered the kit with chrome rings from that guy in Ohio, the machine shop did say that the exhaust valve was beyond machining so I did splurge for OEM from a different seller on that one piece. and it was only another $2 for the stellite version as opposed to the non stellite OEM one from that seller... and less than 1/2 the price of an OEM stellite exh valve from a major small engine parts biz that I have bought lots of parts from over the years..... should have everything by Friday.....

I'm skeptical about going back standard...... if it's in that good of shape, why did you even take it apart??? :Unknown:

I took it apart because I found the governor retainer screw/pin laying alongside the engine among all the grass and oily mess.... so was afraid to attempt to fire it. While apart I had to pop the piston out to get the crank back in, and saw that the top ring land looked like steel that had been torch cut. all chewed up. Also noticed that the piston and rod didn't look OE, but as hard as everything came apart and as baked as the gaskets were, if it had been previously apart it was a LONG time ago.

as far as going back std, I took the block to an automotive machine shop and had them measure everything out, so I could know exactly what size (over/under) it would take... I fully expected to have to bore and machine the crank going in but the "experts" with the mikes said it didn't need it, I was quite surprised. Especially after having seen the condition of the piston, they said "the piston took the abuse rather than the block... their words not mine. They did say that the block deck (head gasket sealing surface) would need to be resurfaced. not unexpected considering the "stain" I saw along the bottom of that surface, I could tell the head gasket had to have been leaking, even though the gasket definitely did NOT look "blown" in the least.

This was my 1st experience with this machine shop, we shall see..... I have a K321 that I want to send them right behind this one out of an old Sperry rand/New Holland (which became the Ariens GT line) maybe the K341 from my newest (most recent) Ariens that showed up here.... well see how this one turns out 1st, as with the old machine shop I used to use (owner retired/no longer around) I could NEVER get out of there without the block needing "everything", I sometimes wondered if they were taking advantage of me or if they truly needed everything they charged me for.....

I thought for a second of just doing a quickie hone here at home on this one but decided against it on account of not having any inside mikes or bore/taper gauges here to use. (I do have outside mikes and know how to use them)

oh; and I did have to Heli coil the hole for that gov gear retainer pin.... the threads on the pin I found looked like new, but the threads in the block were smooth, almost as if they never threaded the hole though we all know better than that.

I'm still skeptical about the bore. Do this. Have them run a rigid hone through it until it's round, then check the bore again. If the clearance is too loose, then you don't pay for the hone job. :biggrin2:

Also, the head is aluminum, the block is cast... the head most generally takes all the wear. I have in the past, ran my glass plane on the top of a block that looked like it wasn't flat. It was maybe .0015" off. Took only a few min with the glass plane to get it flat. It did clean the deck nice, but wasn't really necessary.

I'd go in there and make them show you that the deck isn't flat. That or get a second opinion.


So, was the governor gear out? Still not really understanding why you tore it down...
That damage to the top of the piston is normal after hours and hours of run time. It's also an indication that it was ran too lean. I always run my Kohlers a little fat. Keeps them cool... and saves internals. Plus, I don't believe in global warming.

yeah the governor arm was wedged by the gear that was halfway off its post.... so I had to investigate within to make sure it did not grenade upon startup, if I had tried to start it initially. and to put it back together right.
I have enough leftover gaskets from past jobs, I had everything here I need to pull down and investigate....
and yeah, I plan to resurface the head (I still have it here, have done those before) I have already glass beaded that. Deposits were what I'd consider normal, I have definitely seen worse. This wasn't my 1st trip into a Kohler K series. but it ws my 1st experience with this machine shop, and my 1st time hearing the results that I did upon a machine shop's inspection.
on the piston, once I saw that top land, I was not happy to see that but was glad I caught it now rather than to have to take it down again....
and the burnt exhaust valve too....
The fins were totally and completely packed solid with what looked like wheat or hay and pussy willow seeds.... The machine shop said they didn't think it had a whole lot of hours, but to me it looked like those hours it did have were put on it "hard".
as far as how I run them I run them where the carb is where it wants to be, to run its best, good power, no hestitation when revved or put under load for the machine that it happens to be on/// not like I have a exhaust scope to measure rich/lean haha.... judging by reading the plug I would say they usually end up "just right" maybe slightly rich when I get them where they want to be.

I don't know if this is a common outcome, but the one time a shop (Case/IH dealer) told me all I needed was a piston and rings, and I paid them $800 to rebuild the engine, it lasted less than two years cutting an acre of grass---maybe 50 hours of run time--before it began to blow oil out the breather and it developed a bad knock (piston slap). The oil turned silver from the aluminum wear metal.

Ever since that experience, I've been rebuilding the engines myself, and always having the local NAPA shop bore the cylinder oversize, turn the crank and do the valve seats.

I've had good results with the ebay kits (bat4kids is the vendor).

I do have one tractor that I mic'd the cylinder myself and put new std rings and reused the existing piston--which had no apparent wear. I have no idea how long that will last, but it doesn't get run much, as it's a garage queen at this point. I would never do that on a working tractor.

yes bakt 4 kids is who I got my kit from, though I got an OEM Kohler stellite exhaust valve from another seller for this build (intake was able to be resurfaced with enough margin left on the valve,to be OK)
I had gotten a kit from bakt 4 kids for a K181 about 8-10 years ago because it was cheap... I had an OEM piston and rings here already and when the kit got here I compared OEM to what he'd sent me and decided that what he sent me looked like junk and returned it.... the piston was in an otherwise unmarked white box with a small gold sticker that said "made in China" and a blue number that looked like a library stamp, no name, no nothing/ I figured that if they weren't proud enough to at least put their name to their product it probably wasn't worth anything/ what he sent me this time at least "looks" better than what I remember of that 8hp kit of some years ago.
that last time, he took the kit back and refunded me with no questions asked....
but I cannot see paying $154 just for ONE piston, when I can buy a whole set of 8 for my truck for that.... so I am going to try one of those kits I guess... I have never heard of the name of the spark plug that he sent me, for sure... looks like a (cheap) imported copy of a CJ-8.... K301s take an H-10.
the last time I did a Kohler (an M12--essentially the same as a K301) I used all OEM parts and wound up spending over $500 for that rebuild including the bore job and crank machine work, which is ridiculous. 0.010 under rod, 0.010 over piston and rings, gaskets, carb kit and a throttle shaft and bushing kit. And that OEM, factory Kohler piston I used in that rebuild? Made in India.... Disappointed for sure in that, for what it had cost! and I did all the disassembly and reassembly myself like always.

Regarding the bore/don't bore and cut crank/don't cut the crank debate, I am of the mindset that if it legitimately needs to be done, then yes-by all means, go ahead.because I hate re-do's!!! but if somehow the engine really doesn't, then DON'T do everything to it simply for the sake of gouging me, when it really doesn't need it...
Like I said before, this was my 1st experience with this shop, if it smokes or eats oil, and is down on power then that means that they really should have bored it, so I won't use them again.... if it means I gotta take a 1/2 day off work to drive to another machine shop and be there before closing time, and do it again when I get the call that my machine work is done to pick it up, then that is what I will do the next time.
There are none within reasonable distance of me, certainly no NAPA within at least a 60 mile raduis has machine work offered, and there are at least 10 NAPA's that I can think of off the top of my head, probably more. but of those 10, none offer machine work. so we shall see. the last parts store that offered in house machine shop service near me was a Bumper to Bumper/ and the last of their 3 machinists retired here this past Christmas so they closed the last local machine shop I had access to.

You really haven't been around parts suppliers much have you. Of coarse it came in a blank box with no name. That way Kevin (bakt4kids) can keep his supplier anonymous. All as has been done is repackaging. I don't know how many overhauls you have done, but I've probably done in the neighborhood of 200. (That's about 10 a year for 20 years. Lew likes to fact check my numbers, lol.) Unless they are OEM they seldom have any identification on them once out of the box. Of coarse the piston "looked" different. It was aftermarket. This is common.

One of the main suppliers I use for diesel engine rebuilds is a company out of Indiana. They have their own pistons made just for them. No identification marks on them, and they come in a blank box. I've put those kits in everything from tractors to trucks, to B series Cummins in Dodge pickups. THEY LAST. Quit worrying about how the parts look and just run them. Yes... they are going to look different.

As far as grinding/boring.... well, you seem convinced that standard is the way to go. You must be right, your a mechanic. Here's an interesting fact.... not many machine shops are staffed with experienced engine machinists.... or know anything about air cooled Kohlers. I'm very choosy when it comes to a machine shop... but then again, I usually only go to them with what I want done. I'm not usually looking for them to tell me what I need. Seems like so many engine machine shops these days are staffed with people who are inexperienced. Just like so many other places these days. Fact is, they just won't charge for, or pay, to have a good experienced engine machinist in place. Besides the fact that rebuilding an engine is becoming so uncommon, the lack of good shops are due to the fact that any good engine machinist opens his own shop and specializes. I don't know where in Illinois you are but Effingham Illinois has some really good shops. Vogul is in Effingham. But I digress. Just frustrates me that you don't seem to be listening to advice. But, it's your motor, your money and your time. Do as you see fit. I'd get a second opinion.

Just got a kit from the bat guy.
Lucky I had extra plate shims on hand from other builds because there were not enough shims in his set to get ANY end play.

both upper rings were marked "top" and I had to install the center ring "upside down" to get the bevel facing down. The rings came in a piece of cardboard that had been cut from an old brown box and wrapped w/tape. Geesh....

Oh well, maybe I'll jus paint the thing w/bedliner and be done w/it!!

yeah I wondered about how the rings were packaged, mine came wrapped the same way. that last set, the one that i returned without using, was wrapped in cellophane much like that rack of $1.59/ 2-for-$3 candy on the end of the row in the grocery store..... no name, no ID numbers, nothing.

Were your "top" marked rings "barrel" shaped or scraper?
Various engine and ring manufacturers specify different ring configurations.
Also some manufacturers differ in their beliefs as far as configuration, some use barrel shape in the top position and second position, other do not.
Some go with a barrel on top and a scraper in the second position.

Still others use a scraper design, only inverted, in the second position.
Some top rings are chrome others are chrome with moly in the center of the chrome surface,
others still are plain cast iron.

A tapered or scraper ring, induces a twist in the ring to promote sealing.
Hastings has a very good WWW or did, I have not been there for some years.
Rings with a dot on them are installed up or if they say top.
Usually if a ring is marked "top" or has a dot,it refers to the way it is installed on the piston, not what groove it goes in.
if rings are not marked they can go either way.
Again, their are exceptions.
There are a whole bunch of traditions and beliefs in ring configurations.
If they go to the extent to stamp "top" on a ring they want it installed with top up regardless to the bevel on the inner edge.

I like the bedliner idea, a coat of paint covers a multitude of sins :biggrin2:
do put an extra coat on the fins, it will keep it nice and warm on cold days:beer2:

Finally. An answer from another experienced engine builder.

None were barrel shaped.
His instructions and diagrams suck!
I had to e mail him twice to get it through his head what I was asking and he never did answer one of my questions.

That's because he's a parts salesman, not a mechanic. What did you need to know that you couldn't figure out?

I've not had any issues when I bought kits from him. NONE.

Clarification on the center ring installation.

This is what came with the last kit I got from him;

JMech; I am not disputing your advice at all. Not one bit. I haven't done 200 small engine rebuilds, if I had to guess I'd have to say~40-50. plus probably a dozen car-truck engines.
and I live in Kankakee, which has become a automotive machine shop desert in recent years. I am dealing with a guy in Kentland IN, I work in Watseka, and Kentland is ~15 miles from work. The next closest machine shop (whom I have also dealt with but never on a small engine) is 55 miles from work, 18 miles from home. I cannot do business with them without taking time off of work due to the distance. There used to be a couple up near where I grew up, 30 miles north of where I live. No more. The next one that I know of is in Rantoul, which is ~60 miles from home and ~50 miles from work.
Not saying that I picked this guy to do this engine solely based on location, but it definitely was a consideration in the decision to give him a try. from what guys at work say, he has been in business a long time, and has a shop full of car engines in various stages, engine machine work is all they do.

I don't know if I said this before but I took that block in with full intention of having it bored and the crank cut!!! I was actually quite surprised when I got the news that I did about it.... I had my mind set on a bore job.... so your statement about being convinced that standard is the way to go.... isn't quite true.
I (was) convinced the other way!!!! that being because every other Kohler I have ever done, has had to be bored out. but as I had said, I am trying this machine shop out, sometimes that is the only way to see for sure how good they are.... if this ends up being an oil burner then I won't be going back....
I will say this; my last 3 engine rebuilds were Jeep 4.0, Dodge 5.9 (360 cu in) Magnum, and an older carb'd 360. In all 3 cases, I asked for the minimum overbore that would clean up the blocks, and parts were readily available for, which for all 3 of those engines, works out to 0.020. The machine shop I used for those (the one 55 miles from work) refused to even try to bore any of them out less than 0.030, regardless of what the blocks actually needed! I don't like that kind of service either. If they had some legitimate reason ( like 0.020 wasn't enough to clean up the bores) then I would not have had an issue with what they did. but I like the most cylinder wall thickness possible, along with leaving more room for possible future needs.

I have absolutely no problem doing anything that is needed; and I have been accused of replacing parts on my own vehicles and equipment prematurely, in the interest of maintenance and preventing breakdowns/ I treat my own a little different than I would if spending someone else's money the one thing that pi$$e$ me off more than almost anything else, is a re-do of a job that I recently did....
I was just at the machine shop where this block is at, and he did resurface the block's head surface, but only needed 0.005". Not a terrible amount. and the exhaust valve that he said was bad, is/ that certainly would not have cleaned up. and he even said that getting parts thru his source would probably be a little "salty" and if I wanted to find parts he had no issue with that.... I did leave him the head to check that out for possibly needing the same thing.

on another note, my son went to school for machine tool, and is currently considering going back to school for automotive machine work, he definitely has had alot of under hood and under car time hanging around me and also his uncles, and his buddies who own a diesel shop, (that has been in their family for a few generations) who are looking into buying the tooling and machines out of the most recent machine shop whose last partner just retired for good this past Christmas... if he does go back to school and they do decide to reopen that last local machine shop, he will be busy with "government" work, to be sure!

Mine should have looked like that.

Fins; your what, should have looked like what?


and a quick update; something I have seen before, is now hard to find and in this case just what the Dr ordered for this build; an NOS Kohler 0.003" piston. The machinist said that my block is "officially" 0.003 over, with a claimed tolerance of 0.0035" over, allowed to stay with a standard piston-- I do need to check on that-- ("next time it will need bored" in the words of the machine shop) I looked on FeeBay and happened to find one for this engine when I got home, for what I think is a really good deal.... listed for $45 I made an offer of $35 and we split it... so $40 for an original Kohler piston, rings and wrist pin at 0.003" which should get me back to factory tolerance.... so many OEM pistons for 4x that listed on the Bay, so I think I did OK..... hope so anyways. part number 47-874-07s
The last one (actually a Magnum version) I asked if that would work and on that build the answer was "no", I never posed the question on this engine....

Just for clarity, I haven't done 200 small engine rebuilds. I've done around 200 engine rebuilds. I have no idea how many small engines, gas, diesel... no idea. I was going to give a list of all the different brands, but I won't.


I'm sure the exhaust valve was shot. I seldom put old valves back in a Kohler. Not much margin on that small of a valve when new. I have ground them, especially on 7/8 HP motors because the valves aren't available in aftermarket, and the intake at least doesn't seem to wear too bad.

The head gasket would have took care of whatever was "low" on the block. If they only took off .005" then the distortion was less. They just got you for the price of a deck job.

Why would you take them the head? Hopefully they only use a belt planer on it and don't take the time to chuck it up in a head planer. I do them myself for no cost.

I dunno man. You keep saying that if this rebuild goes south that next time you won't use them. You've already given me enough info that I wouldn't use them one time.

If you do decide to run it with a standard bore, I want to know what the skirt clearance is when you reassemble it. I bet it's over .010".... and that's way too much. Not just by the book either.... When doing an overhaul, I like to get them down about .005"-.007". (Ran one at .004" and it is still running.) The newer pistons and oil seem to do fine with it. Clearances are a little tighter now than they were years ago. If they go up to .008" or above, I'm calling the shop wanting to know what happened. Remember, the Kohler manual was written long before we had the ability to make pistons out of the alloy's they now do. Even the "cheap stuff" is probably made out of a better alloy than the original was.


finsruskw:
If there is a chrome ring, it always goes on top.
If there are two identical rings, it doesn't matter which way they go.
If there is no chrome ring, look at the inside bevel and for a dot. Usually one or the other will have a dot. If one has a dot and one doesn't, blank ring on top.
If that doesn't cover it, ask on here. Better to ask here than to ask the guy who sold the parts, because 99 out of 100 times they don't know. :beerchug:

J-mech, some good info for sure.... I know I need to get me some inside mikes, for sure. used to have some telescoping gages but gave them to my son as he needed a set for work.


on the deck job, I don't feel that bad, piece of mind, cheap insurance that all will seal good, letting them do that, may change when I get the bill ha ha.... and I have been meaning to take that head up to my Mom's house the last 3 times but keep forgetting to grab it, in my Dad's wood shop is a 6x48 belt sander, I have resurfaced many heads on that thing, usually don't take much more than 30 secs, and i usually put it on the belt table just as I shut the sander motor off....
its been a little while since I did a K series (I'm guessing 2 maybe 3 years now) gonna have to dust off the manual for the specs. but I have 2 more to do after this one.... another 301, and a K 321. the 321 is apart already.