149 not starting
 

When trying to start, the engine will not turn over past the full compression. ACR has not been bothered. Trued up cylinder head and torqued down to 35 Lbs. Could I have taken too much off cylinder head and now it has too much compression? I am stumped. New fully charger battery. New cables to starter.
12.5 volts at starter when starting. Checked all grounds and sanded. All look good. Took out points rod and one end looks like it is not flat. Having trouble adjusting points with static timing. Gap seems to change when I turn the engine around to "S" mark. Any help will be appreciated. Have a great day.
Bob

Take the Spark Plug out and see if it rolls over better!

:bigthink:

How soon after checking battery did you get the reading of 12.5v?

I'd let it set for 1-2 hours after charge and retest in relaxed state(no load) to see of voltage has dropped. If it does, then you have a weak cell(s) and is draining other cells and requires a new battery.

On your points air gap, I'd just turn over engine(without spark plug) for ease and get the points push rod to it's maximum outwards extension, and then set points at the proper setting the manual calls for. This is easiest way I've found as long as internals of engine work correctly.

The head leveling I can't commit on as I don't know how much you did. These engines have some leeway on truing up the surfaces before problems. Hope someone else can help.

I do have the spark plug out when setting points. Engine turns fairly easy using the front pto to turn it. Charged the new battery last night and this morning had 12,5 volts at starter when trying to start. I believe the battery is good. Seem as though the compression relief is not releasing. Hopefully it would start if the engine would turn over past the compression point.Just seems to have a lot more compression after truing the cylinder head. Have a great day.
Bob

As far as checking the ACR on your 149. Remove the spark plug, and rotate the engine over by hand a couple of revolutions while watching the exhaust valve. See if the exhaust valve fully closes during the compression stroke, or not. And/or see if it stays slightly open during all rotation.
The factory head on your 149 should have the spark plug positioned over the exhaust valve.

Planing the head and having no leaks makes a difference on starting. You can't take too much off the head by hand. It would take all day of sanding. Your arm would fall off before you planed too much off.

You need to set the timing like this:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=33461
That is the easiest way.

I'm sure your point pushrod is fine. Did you replace the points?

Checking to see if the exhaust valve is opening during the compression stroke is a fine way to see if the ACR is working. It will open just before the piston reaches TDC, then close again if the ACR is working correctly. If it is not, either you valves need adjusted, or the ACR is not working. Remove the cam side cover to check ACR spring first, then adjust valves as necessary.

Thank you Ash 129 & J-Mech

Will look down spark plug hole first to see if exhaust valve is moving correctly.
Then I will remove valve cover and check it out through there. Is the valve cover the same as the cam cover, or are they two separate covers. I should check valve adjustment also. Do you have to remove the carburetor to get cover off? To adjust the valves I probably should remove carburetor. Thanks again for the help and have a great day.
Bob
..

Cam cover and valve cover are different things. Carb will have to be removed. Adjusting valves is a good idea, but you should be able to see the valve through the plug hole. You'll need several gaskets to remove all that stuff.

Why don't you start simpler than all of this...? Try a new starter to see if that helps...if you've got one laying around. You could have some burned out windings or even carbon buildup inside it. Open it up to see what it looks like inside. Might just need some cleaning. :beerchug:

OK. Made a little progress today. Checked the exhaust valve by looking through the spark plug hole. Exhaust valve seems to be opening and closing properly. It starts to open about 1/2 crank rotation before "S" marking Then it closes at the "S" timing mark. Kohler points had a little nipple on one side. Took a Popsicle stick and 220 sand paper and sanded the points on both sides. Cleaned all the sanding grit off points and installed them. Set the points using the static method. Did not have a 12 volt light tester, so I set points to "001" with "S" in sight hole on compression stroke. Tractor then started after quite a few revolutions. Ran it for a while to warm it up and then adjusted carb. Turned it off and waited a few minutes and restarted it. Again it turned over more than it should before starting. Wii purchase a 12 volt light tester and re-check points. Will also check the valve lash and adjust if needed, hopefully Wed. or Thursday.Forgot to mention that the starter has been rebuilt by a Company in Logan, Wv. Can't think of the name at the moment. Thanks once again for all the help. Have a great day.
Bob

I use a multi-meter set on audible to know when the points open. I did 2 Cadets this summer that we had been having cranking trouble with. They were both trying to kick back on the starter. Things are much better now!
So is the starter still having trouble rolling the engine through compression? Your last post reads like its spinning the engine with no trouble now.

John, Thanks for posting. Still having trouble with starter stopping at compression point. I moved crank back from compression point by hand to give it a running start. This usually works. After starting it yesterday, I let it run for a little while and then shut it off. Let it set for a few minutes and started it. It rolled past the compression point fairly well, but still took quite a few revolutions for the engine to fire. The multi-meter that you have, how loud is the audible? I am a little hard of hearing. Does it have alligator clips or the metal points? I think I would like the audible better than the light as you do not have to keep watching the tester light. I was going to work on it some more today, but I have a Doctor appt. to check out my knee. Thanks for the info and have a great day.
Bob

Got to work on my 149 yesterday. Checked valve clearance and they were in spec. Still will not pass compression stroke unless I turn engine back by hand to give it a running start, then It will pass the compression stroke and start. Bought a test light and reset time. Was just barely off. Did not help. Then reset points to break a little past the "S" mark toward the "T" to retard a little. Did not help. I just feel that the compression is a little too much. The S/G has been rebuilt and turns engine over good once it has passed the compression stroke. Any one know of a thicker head gasket to reduce compression a little? I rechecked the opening of the exhaust valve and it is starting to open about 1/2 crank turn before firing so ACR seems to be working properly. Any ideas will be appreciated. Thanks and have a great evening.
Bob

For some reason I think we acquired a 129 once that had too large of a pulley on the S/G. I'm not where I can measure one to see what it should be. Just wondering if the pulley is too large and killing your power. For giggles, have you tried a different battery? Maybe even rig up a way to bypass the starting circuit, just wondering if you have a bad switch/wiring that's dropping the voltage to the starter.:bigthink:

Wrong pulley on the S/G is a good idea.
Or a bad engine ground. That would also do it.

I promise, your compression isn't too high. You can raise it quite a bit and it will still roll over if the ACR is working. You say it is, so you must have a different issue. You say the S/G was rebuilt. By a shop? Or you threw a new set of brushes in it and called it rebuilt? Was the armature checked for shorts/opens is what I want to know...... :bigthink:

I had a 125 years ago that kicked back on the starter generator bad... I had two old timer starter generator shops look at my S/G... both said it was fine.... Finally one day out of desperation I took the S/G off another tractor and tried it on the 125.... Guess what! That was the problem the whole time... :beerchug:

OK. J-Mech's post about S/G being rebuilt in a shop sparked my old memory.As I now remember, I had 2 cub 149 tracrors. Sent both S/G to shop in Logan, Wv. that rebuilds them. Received them back and one was rebuilt and the other was said to be working ok. I do not know which one was rebuilt. This was about 2 1/2 years ago. The one on the other 149 is working fine. If I remember correctly, I tried to put the S/G that is now on my working tractor on the tractor that I an refurbishing but the pulleys would not line up. I think I will try to use it again and move the pulley on the tractor if needed. This may be a few days from now as I am pretty sore from putting the snow blower on the working tractor. I will never take it off again. Will buy me another 149 first. But that is another story. Thanks for all the help and have a great day.
Bob

Was this running at one time and these symptoms just started or has this existed ever since you owned it? FYI, I happen to have my S/G apart for rebuilt so I took a picture of the pulley and diameter. This is on a 100, not sure if they are all the same. I suspect so but not verified.

A 100 uses a different diameter pulley than others. Don't know why.

I can't remember which, but the 10 hp engines in the 100's either didn't have an ACR OR the early ones didn't have an ACR.

I believe they (the ones without the ACR) used a smaller pulley so the S/G would have enough torque to get the engine past the compression stroke.

Ah thanks for that tid bit. I have never taken a K241 apart, only K161's and K181's.

Glad to learn something new

Bill

smalljob, this tractor was running before i replaced the blown head gasket. I believe that the members are correct and it is the S/G. Will know in a few days.
Bob

Took the S/G off this afternoon and removed the back plate. Will attach 3 pictures. Just by looking, can any one tell if it has been rebuilt. Has only started tractor about 6 times and ran for about 4 minutes total. All help is appreciated. Have a great day.
Bob

Well the brushes look new, but the armature has not been cleaned or recut.
Can't see anything else.

Commutator is quite the hour glass shape and the separations look kinda packed with brush dust Bob. You need to get that armature checked out/turned/replaced by a reputable shop that rebuilds them. No way to tell the condition of the armature other than visual inspection but it doesn't look good.

Actually, my growler
(or any growler) will detect an electrical problem with a commutator.

A quick visual inspection tell tale of a problem with the windings is any two adjoining segments of the commutator that shows arcing between them,or on them, is an indication of a bad winding.
Also signs of the the armature rubbing in the pole shoes indicates either worn bushings or bent armature shaft.
Another visual is to look @ where both ends of the windings are soldered to the commutator,if solder is slinging off or you can see it had gotten hot,would be a suspect area.
As far as carbon dust in the commutator area, it is to be expected of new brushes taking a seat to the commutator.

Not a lot of starter/generator/Alt. repair shops still around.
Today it is more cost efficient to throw away and buy china new:angry:

George what I meant is that the OP here obviously doesn't have a growler to test it so his options are to have a local shop if there is one rebuild or replace it. I can see the commutator isn't it good shape from here. And honestly wouldn't buy the China one, certain members here have good working delco generators for half the price.

I understood that and a good suggestion.:beerchug:
I was just giving him somethings for a laymen to look for without any diagnostic
tools other than a pair of eyes.
I would prefer a good old delco to a china built anyday.
Also I didn't comment on the field possibilities as he only asked of the armature.
No offence intended toward you or others.
Sad that today,things are not repaired as we all have discussed here.
In this case just not a lot of need or money to be made as the demand has diminished for even electric motor repair other than large industrial motors.
Even the reman /alt/starter places don't rewind armatures, too costly compared to new, just like radiator repair places and enviro. rules.
I'll stop here, no need to beat a dead horse.

On the note of not many alt/starter/gen repair shops around any more. There is one in Vincennes, In that I use. I normally do it myself, but I don't have a growler, so I sometimes send them there if I suspect a bad armature or other issues. They have always been reasonable priced I think.

Organ Battery, Vincennes, Indiana.
http://organbattery.com/

We used to have three starter and generator shops in town... we are down to one... the guy is 80 years old and trying to retire.... I beg him not to but he says he can't find anyone that wants to learn the trade..

I run a shop of my own... we still work on stuff with points and carburetors... still rebuild transmissions, differentials and engines... all in house... I have more work than I can handle... but nobody under the age of 35 wants to learn the trade anymore... Unfortunately the service industry seems to be dying a slow painful death...

Like George said... it's all throw away and buy new China stuff now!:bash2:

Went down in the garage last night. Took the S/G off my work tractor and took off the end plate. Insides looked about the same as the other S/G. Brushes were worn about the same length as the other S/G. Put the S/G from the work tractor on the tractor I am refurbishing.This S/G starts the work tractor easily and it would not roll past the compression stroke on the refurbished tractor. Rolled the crankshaft back from the compression stroke and it still would not go past the compression stroke. This engine has been rebuilt at some point in time as it has a "10" over piston in it. I wonder if they could have shaved the head while being overhauled, thus causing the blown head gasket. I am lost as to what needs to be done. I have been starting it by holding the 2 buttons on top of the relief valves down to reduce the starting pressure. When the tractor starts the wheels do not turn. I have to move the forward reverse lever quite a ways forward before the wheels start to move. I had it up on stands at that time. The tractor wheels are on the ground now. Thanks for baring with me and have a great day.
Bob

You might want to investigate your battery, and associated cables , also check engine ground to
chassis, if so equipped.
You would have to mill a lot off the head to increase the compression to a point it causes problems with starting.
I always felt .040 was a good amount to see an increase in power and snappy-ness of throttle.
Anymore than that you start to shroud the valves or they hit the head.
You could run a comparative compression check between the 2 engines if you feel that is the problem.

Are you saying by holding the relief valves down the engine will start normal?
How cold is it when this is going on?

This sounds like you need to isolate the problem before you can proceed.

If it were me, I would try jump starting the tractor from my truck. Attach the pos jumper cable to the "A" terminal on the S/G, attach the other end of the jumper cables to the truck and then attach the neg cable to a known good ground on the tractor (I normally use one of the S/G mounting bolts).

If this spins the engine over, you may have a problem with wiring or connections, if it does not spin over, I would unbolt the drive hub from the engine and see if the S/G spins the engine.

Kinda sounds like the hydro linkage is out of adjustment causing the S/G to not only spin the engine but also spin the engaged transmission as well.

How about pulling the driveshaft out? Shouldn't be that bad if I'm thinking right, this one has a tunnel cover, yes??? Maybe dropping the PTO belt also? Yeah if something is loading the engine from the get-go, its gonna be a bear to crank.

I know I am wearing this thread out but here I go again. Let me start by saying that I am not the brightest bulb around. You all probably know that by now. I am pushing the pins down on the relief valves as I am trying to start tractor. Does this not release all the pressure from the pump? If it doesn't, this is probably my problem. I am almost sure I did not find true neutral when I adjusted the sliding part held by 2 bolts. When I stopped the tires by pressing the brake, the tires did not start rolling again with throttle at almost full open. The metal piece that you adjust was at full top. When I adjusted my other tractor, the metal adjustment was tapped almost half way down. Will check that adjustment again if the tractor will start and re-adjust if necessary. If that doesn't help I will remove the drive shaft and see if that helps the problem. Thanks for every one's help and advise. I will keep you posted as I work on it. Have a great day.
Bob