Cadet 95 electrical issues
 

I have bumped into an issues regarding my 95e. More than one actually, but lets start with the initial problem and go from there.

My 95e starts and the traction motor runs fine. Bases on the wiring diagram I have a bad traction motor switch that does not connect circuits B & C. The continuity is hit and miss, but the important issue is I have only about 1.5 volts at those contacts when the traction motor is in the run position. I have spent hours and hours looking for a traction motor switch without success. The one I have does not appear to be original. It is an Indak switch, 3 position, 5 terminal, milled key. I looked at Indak's site and they do not identify their terminal clearly enough for me to determine which switch would work well.

Without the traction motor switch it is virtually impossible to continue testing the rest of the system. I suspect the blade switch may also be bad as well. I know one of the circuit breakers is bad, there is no continuity through it. I would rather not get involved in "hot wiring" things to test further.

Does anyone have any recommendations and/or suggestions?

Thanks ML

From "my" research, the Key Switch (traction motor switch) is a IH-57599-C1 which is NLA. According to the diagram I have, it is a six terminal, three position switch. I went to the Indak web site, and I can not find any thing that matches up to the Cub Cadet arrangement. Thus I conclude, it was a specialty switch just made for IH/Cub Cadet.

Thanks Roland

I have all of the requisite books on the 95e. The service manual has the wiring diagram and on that it does show 6 positions. However, the Traction Motor Switch indicates that the two positions marked "B" are internally connected in a constant state. That is perhaps why there would only be 5 actual terminals. In that way, B&C are connected in both the Start and Run modes. My switch harness connector as well as a parts chassis both have 5 terminal connectors.

I have noticed that you seem to be a bit of a guru on these electrical issues. Not being one is really driving me nuts. I can follow basic circuits, but in this case it is difficult to follow everything once it gets to and past the traction motor switch. Also, IH has the positions marked as A,B,C,D,E. Whereas most switches are marked as B,S,I,A,R. As a result, things get confusing. IMO, as long as the IH terminal A is connected to Bat + via post 1 of the traction motor magnetic switch and the transmission neutral switch and IH terminal E is connected to post #2 on the traction motor magnetic switch via post #5 on the blade motor magnetic switch, the rest is easier to figure out. My biggest fear is that I really do not want to cut the wire harness connector and have to re-wire it. From what I can see, both harnesses are original. As long as A never connects to E there should be no issue to be worried about.

Another thing that burned a few brain cells was a "jumper" wire from the traction motor magnetic switch post 3 to the 100 amp fuse. All I can determine is somebody was trying to bypass the traction motor thermal switch. The motor ran just fine with or without the mysterious "jumper" wire.

Your thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.

ML

Roland

I revisited the Indak site and after analyzing the needs I better understand the connection requirements. I believe that the Indak part number 3A463A will work as required. It is listed as a "Special". I emailed Indak with a request for some additional terminal photos and/or descriptions and will see what they reply with.

I also believe that I found a toggle switch for the Blade Motor Switch, IH-57600-C1. Based on it's description, it should be the same as the original in all aspects.

I printed out the two pages, one for each switch. If you want them, I can scan and e-mail copies. I think I can also attach them here in a post if you prefer.

Let me know what you think.

ML

Some additional investigation has shown that all of the component parts for the model 95 are exactly the same as on the models 60, 55 & 75 based on the IH part number. This includes the actual key. The only thing that is not a match is the switch itself. I would suspect that the model 85 & 85 Special also used these components as well. If you look closely or zoom in on the wiring blowup you can see that the switch is mounted in both the Retainer and the Socket using a DD hole configuration and it is larger than the Blade Switch which is a D configuration. The only Indak manufactured key switch with the larger DD configuration is the milled key versions.

To my knowledge, the only two other members here that have the model 95 are MBounds & JeffK. I would appreciate it if either of these two could or would look at their keys and switches and verify that they are indeed a 5 terminal configuration.

My next search is going to be if an electric golf cart set up would have a similar configuration. Considering the all electric configuration, it may have a similar wiring system.

I called Indak today and am waiting for a return call to see if their part number 3A463A is still an available part number. If this switch is not an exact replacement, I think it would be a functionally suitable one. In my experience with design and engineering people, they seem to look for existing hardware that will accomplish a specific task and then design the rest of the components around it. I don't know that IH would have designed a switch and had them "custom" made when an available stock option already existed. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first or the last time.

Any additional help would be appreciated.

ML

Do I have to have the full 36V power source in order to bench test the solenoids?

I am confused by the blade motor solenoid. It appears that if I energize the coil via #7 & 8, the resulting connection at #6 simply creates a negative to negative battery connection. I fail to see where the blade motors get their positive side power. Can anyone enlighten me?

ML

:Work:

I will gladly help you but I need some information. I see the Blade Motor Solenoid on the Wiring Diagram. I went to the Cub Cadet Parts Lookup site and can't seem to find it.

I need a picture(s) of this solenoid, so I have a better understanding of what is being accomplished in the diagram.

Thanks Roland

I have the solenoid at my home and will take a picture of it tonight. I have never posted any photos here, so that may be a new trial and error. First I will iPhone the photo then have to transfer that to my Mac and then see how to post it here. Physically, the solenoid looks pretty much like the diagram drawing.

Based on the wiring diagram it sure looks like post #6 and the adjacent post, not numbered, but directly connected to the 100 amp Fuse and ground will be connected when the coil is energized.

The other question was: Do I have to have the 36V power source in order to bench test either one of the solenoids?

Thanks again.

ML

Roland

Here is the picture. I hope my resizing effort worked. Hope it is helpful.

ML

From that picture, can you show or tell what wire colors went to what terminals...??
:bigthink:

Roland

At 9 o'clock. Post 5. (red) from post 2 of the traction solenoid, then (pink) to E of the Traction Motor Switch & onward (pink) to C of the Blade Motor Switch.
Top Left: Direct to 100 amp Fuse. No Post Number. The 100 amp fuse was actually mounted on this post.
Top Right: Direct to Post 6 at 3 o'clock via 90' copper "L". No Post Number.
At 3 o'clock. Post 6 (dark blue) to Right circuit breaker and onward (dark blue) to Right Blade Motor.
Also Post 6 (dark blue) to Left circuit breaker and onward (dark blue) to Left Blade Motor.
At Center Right. Post 7 (black/white) to Left blade motor thermal switch.
At Center Left. Post 8 (purple) from Post C of the Traction Motor Switch.
Posts 7 & 8 are the solenoid "energizing" coil lines.

If it would be more helpful I can scan a copy of the IH Cadet service manual page that has the full wiring diagram. Just let me know. This solenoid and the wiring to and from it are quite confusing.

Thanks
ML

OK...How about ID'ing from this

A =
B =
C =
D =
E =
F =

Based on your lettered markup:

A = Black/White to the Left Blade Motor Thermal Switch.
B = Purple from the Traction Motor Switch.
C = Red from the Traction Motor Solenoid.
Pick to the Traction Motor Switch & onward to the Blade Motor Switch.
D = Directly connected to the 100 Amp Fuse.
E = Directly connected to F.
F = Dark Blue. 1 each to the Right & Left Blade Motors.

I have been trying to paste the actual wiring diagram, but the file size is too large to attach. I also cannot figure out how to crop the diagram down to the actual solenoid area.

I hope the above description is sufficient.

ML

THANK YOU...That helps.

Send the diagram you have to: onlycubcadets@yahoo.com

I'll see if it different than the one I have.

I will send the diagram.

ML

:Work:

I have it all figured out now. I have sent you an E-mail with all the data and diagrams. Also, I have found aftermarket replacements for both solenoids if that is needed.

Hope this helps.

Great Job Roland

Thanks a whole lot for the time and effort that you put into this. The "corrected" wiring diagram will really help me to bench test all of the components.

You and I both agree that the Indak Key Switch #3A463A is a suitable replacement for the Traction Motor Switch. I believe that Indak Toggle Switch #A223A is a suitable replacement for the Blade Motor Switch.

I would appreciate your information on what you have found to be replacement solenoids. Whether I will need them is yet to be determined, but to be prepared is the best approach.

Again and for the umpteenth time, Thanks.

ML

Check your e-mail account for the requested data.

ML, sorry I haven't entered this conversation earlier, but I just discovered it this evening. I think you can find the answer to your question of how much voltage is required here, http://www.cubcadetman.com/cc/catego...neous/cadet95/

When I first got my 95 I searched for a lot of the information you're now looking for without much success. I enjoyed your informative posts.

The 95 is my grandkids favorite tractor. Someday I hope they give me a chance to compete the restoration. I'm still looking for replacement decals.I think I have someone that will make them for me if I can get better copies of the original decals.

Pfunk

Thanks for the info. I suspected that I would need 36V to truly test everything and your link site confirmed it.

All of the credit for the electrical issues that I was originally asking about goes to Roland. He did most, if not all, the leg work. He found that the schematic as shown in the IH Service Manual has a minor flaw in it that caused all of my confusion. It was in the depiction of the Blade Motor Solenoid.

I hadn't planned on doing a restoration. I simply wanted a clean runner. However, with the Traction motor running and the drive train in operating condition, I then bumped into the failure of the Blade motors to energize and run. That started the whole thing. Now, with everything disassembled in order to fully test all of the components, I have come to the decision that I might just as well go through a complete restore. Next spring looks like the earliest I will be mowing with it. Decals look to be a major issue. I looked a bit and haven't seen anyplace with anything. Let me know if you find anything. I have a local sign maker that will do custom work, and his work is excellent. If he sees an original, he can replicate it. The issue is the cost that "specials" can be.

Interestingly, I picked up my 95 in Indiana. You're now the third other member here with a 95 that I know of. I have wondered how many are still in existence.

If I find any info of value, I will post it here and hopefully help out other 95 owners. Roland confirmed that there is an Indak keyed switch that is a good replacement for the OEM switch and I found a good replacement for the blade motor switch. Roland also provided me with good solenoid replacements for the both of the originals. If you want the makes & models, let me know.

ML

I think maple hunter makes custom decals but not sure,
just google "maple hunter decals" :beerchug:

ML, yes I would appreciate that information on the switches and solenoids. You can post it here in case anyone else is interested or contact me through my website, www.cubcadetman.com. If it's OK with you, I'll also post that information on my website for anyone that's interested in the future. TIA

Paul

Pfunk.

I'll grab the information for the switches & solenoids at home tonight and post them here. No problem with adding the info to your website. The more information that is out there the better for all in need.

ol'George. I had heard of Maple Hunter and when I finally found him saw that he doesn't carry any of the decals for the 95. I'm not sure, but in order to make customs, he would have to have original samples. It would be impossible to remove them from the mower in any sort of condition that he could use. A local source can take the whole body with the decal still in place and have all of the necessary colors, sizes and configurations in order replicate them. Before I get to that point, which is a ways off at this time, I will contact Maple Hunter to see what he can do if anything.

I bumped into the same issue with MLamar about making a new wiring harness. He told me that he had never made a harness for the 95. First he wants to see a picture of it laid out to determine if he can make one, which I am sure he can. Then I would have to send him my harness for him to replicate with all of the correct connectors & colors. Fortunately, I have two wiring harnesses, so that is less of an issue.

The decals are a bit more problematic. My body is in decent shape and only has one front corner broken out. I applaud Pfunk for his workmanship on his 95 as shown on his website. I would never attempt that undertaking. If I decide to repair the minor dink in the body, I will take to a quality fiberglass body shop. At this point, my focus is on the mechanical functionality of the 95. Trailer Queen looks are for the future.

Pfunk. I'll send the info either tonight or first thing in the am.

ML

Pfunk

Here is the information for the switches & solenoids.

Switches
IH 57599C1, Traction mower switch. Replacement: Indak 3A463A.
IH 57600C1, Blade switch. Replacement: Indak A223A.

Solenoids
IH 57604C1, Traction motor solenoid. Replacement: Cole-Hersee, DPST 24080.
IH 57605C1, Blade motor solenoid. Replacement: Cole-Hersee, DPDT 24400.

I am not sure exactly where to get all of them from. I am going to try a local automotive electrical supply & repair company.

ML

Thanks, ML. And, I'll put it on my website first chance I get. I've been mowing pasture all day and right now I just want to cool off!!

Paul

PFunk, RBedell & any other interested folks

I finally had a quality conversation with the Indak Switch people today.

They were indeed the original source manufacture for IH back in the days.
So, the Indak Key switch #3A463A was the original part for IH 57 599C1 and the Indak switch #A223A was the original part for IH 57 600 C1. In fact Tom at Indak gave me the IH part numbers once I gave him the information on what my needed use was for. Unfortunately they do not sell to individuals, but only to OEM companies such as IH. They said they are not comfortable selling to "fix it up folks" because of liability issues.

Both parts are no longer in production. In fact, he couldn't tell me when the last time they actually made them, but did say that the last time they shipped any was in 1982. That does not bode well for finding any today except from off of an old unit that is being striped down. I looked at switches that are for either Battery or Magneto systems and none of them provide the correct Circuit connections. Based on the last shipmate of 1982, there must be some other tractors and/or implements that these switches were used on, but I haven't had any success in that search yet. CCC may well have bought the last of the production for service and replacement use. MTD is my next call. Perhaps they have some in stock that they have forgotten they have.

That is as much information as I have been able to find to this date. Tom at Indak said he would look in an "old locker" that contains archived switches and see if perhaps they find any. He is going to call me back about that possibility.

ML

Baccarat, if I'm reading your thread correctly you're needing a 5 post 36v solenoid correct? Is there room for a bigger version of one? Golf cart and other cud man type carts use 36v 5 post solenoids made by the white Rogers company. Just a thought if you cant find an OE one.

Thanks for the White Rogers reference Alvy.

I had thought of the golf cart possibility, but haven't fully explored it yet. No only is the 5 terminal factor in play, but there is the 3 position deal as well as the correct circuit connections in each of the positions. There is some room for a bit of a larger one if I had to go that route. I would have to remake the brackets that mount it into the body, but for me that would be a minor issue.

I'll some research and see what comes up. Thanks for the input.

ML

Alvy

Sorry, I misread your reply. You made reference to a solenoid. I was thinking of the key switch. Those are the big issues. RBedell and I have determined that there are Cole-Hersee solenoids that are correct replacements. I will still look at White Rogers and see what they carry.

I have a local automotive electrical repair company can can rebuild the motors and they carry the Cole-Hersee solenoids, so that is less of an issue.

Thanks
ML

Have you ever tried to contact these guys,as GE made most of the parts for the Cub Cadet 95.

http://www.watts-up-elec-traks.com/

http://www.electrictractorstore.com/

http://www.kansaswindpower.net/GE%20...20Tractors.htm

Darkminion

I have bumped into all three of those sites and have looked at them. In the past I never found anything that was Cadet 95 related with the exception of the traction drive belt. I have two of those.

That I could tell, Kansas Wind Power doesn't have anything related to electric lawn mowers, much less the Cadet 95.

Of the other two: One has a lot of GE ElecTrak parts. Some used, some rebuilt and some NOS, but nothing showing for the Cadet. A lot of their stuff is simply in old boxes and not cataloged. The other has a lot of new items that are replacement items. But, again, nothing for the Cadet with the except of that drive belt. I might email both of these and see if they have a better in-house inventory system that would show something.

During my research with the original Indak manufactured switches, I have found suitable alternatives to the exact originals. If anyone is interested, I can provide those numbers and what the exact differences are.

ML

So, a year after buying the 95, and 6 months after the last post, I seem to be right where I started from. :bash2:

I had all the metal parts stripped and powdercoat painted. Had the three motors completely rebuilt. I made a complete wiring harness for the short term until I verify everything is up and running. Got three new batteries.

The traction motor key switch bench tested good. The blade motors toggle switch bench tested poorly with some good and not good outcomes. I opened it up, cleaned it and closed it back up. Re-bench tested and all worked well. Bench tested the 2 different solenoids and they appeared good. I re-assembled things and tested the traction motor. It fired right up and drove it around the parking lot. :beer chug:

There's where it all ended. :bash2: No power to the blade motors. The blade motor solenoid does not appear to energize. Per the service manual, I tested all the circuits and based on them all being good, the manual says to replace the blade motor solenoid. None were available locally but NAPA can order it and have it in this Wed/Thurs.

My question is: Why would it bench test good including energizing and then fail when installed? When I bench tested it I used 3 12v batteries that produced 37v combined output. Could low amperage been an issue? The three test batteries were not of the same amperage ratings. Two were rated at 34.8 ah, while one was at about 90 ah. The new matched batteries are all at 70 ah.

Any thoughts?
Mike

There is a BIG difference between "bench" checking and "Load" checking. The most accurate way to test switch(es) is using a Load Test.

Things can check out OK with a DVM (or VOM) but under load totally crap out.

:IH Trusted Hand:

Roland. Wouldn't having a 37v power source create a "load"? Do the blade motors have to be connected to create a "load"? Or, can I have the deck and motors removed and disconnected to check for power. Based on what you are saying and that the manual doesn't say, the blade motors should be connected when performing these various tests.

Mike

I know nothing of what is going on.
That said, is your solenoid's primary pull in voltage ( solenoid coil activation) 36V or is the control voltage 12V and the coil got damaged/burnt up when you applied 36 V. to it?
just a thought as I haven't looked @ any schematic.:bigthink:

I hope this diagram explains the difference between a power source and a Load.

George. The primary pull voltage is 36v throughout the entire system so there is no burn out possibility. Thanks for the consideration and thoughts.

Roland. Based on your info, when I get the new solenoid in, mounted and wired, I will have to mount the deck to check things out under full load. Kind of a bummer. As with most deck mounting, it is a bit of a bear to mount. As it is, I have to again remove the body to get working room on the solenoid. It is what it is.

Thanks for the help Again.

NO.... The load can be ANYTHING on your bench. You can make a load out of Headlights.

Mike I've read back in your thread and although I don't have a schematic for this I think I see how it works.

Question. Did you verify that your blade motor solenoid coil was getting both positive and negative control voltages when you ran it? Your coil has 2 control voltage posts indicating it needs a positive at one and a negative at the other which if you bench tested it you know that. I can't tell exactly but it was stated earlier that one of them comes from a thermal switch inside the blade motors. The other comes from a traction switch so I'm assuming when travel is requested with the blade switch on, the coil is signaled with that voltage. This should not be a frame ground system so what readings did you get that said the solenoid was bad? It's very probable that the solenoid is faulty just due to the age but Just remember that BOTH control voltages to this solenoid appear to be switched and not constant so if one of them is missing, it won't work. And then there's the power side of the solenoid so did you find a faulty control or power side issue with the solenoid? Would like to see a schematic on this one for sure.

Roland. Just to clarify my "Bench Test". I was only continuity testing and not voltage testing. Considering that this is a 36v system, I set up 3 batteries to achieve the required 36v and then simply powered the solenoid in order to hear the engaging click and then tested for continuity. I had already continuity tested without "power on" to insure that things were correct in both the power off and power on positions.

I do understand your "Load Test". However, in order to load test this solenoid I believe that I would need a 36v load. It is a 36v solenoid. My understanding from PFunk is that the system will not work with less than about 25v. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thanks
Mike