582 Vanguard repower
 

Hi Guys,

I've been following this board for a while, and researching my topics before posting new questions so as to not be redundant. But, I need some input. I'm currently repowering a International Harvester built 582 with a late model Briggs Vanguard 18 HP engine. The tractor will be used for lawn care and gardening, so I want to keep the PTO in its original location. The engine fits in with plenty of clearance, but sits too far forward, and too low. The height problem seems straight forward - engine spacers. But I'm getting hung up on the drive shaft issue.

My original engine has an aluminum fan wheel, which also is the clutch drive plate mount, and pilot bearing for the front of the drive shaft. My first question is, should I keep this fan for air movement? I'm thinking that the fan is there because of the diameter of the clutch assembly restricts air flow. Am I okay deleting it? Or should I keep it?

My second question is regarding the drive shaft length. I emailed Jeff in PA, who has been a great help with problem solving. He recommends making a lengthened drive shaft, but I'm wondering how that will work out in relation to the throw-out bearing assembly?

I attached pictures. The first picture is the flywheel assembly on the original opposed twin Briggs engine. The second picture is the fan and clutch drive plate. The last picture is the back of the Vanguard engine, with the original drive shaft hub.

Thanks for your help and input! It's very appreciated.

This is doable but it will be challenging. It will definitely require a custom adapter between the engine and the clutch. I agree that the PTO needs to be your starting point and then work to the rear from that point. What I would do is to locate the engine for the proper PTO location, then I would get the angle and alignment for the drive shaft worked out you need a straight line from the input to the trans all the way through the engine. Think one solid shaft connected to the trans ending at the PTO. Once you have that worked out then you can get the measurements to make the spacer that will bolt to the engine and the 3 pin driver for the clutch. If memory serves the B&S had an odd ball 3 pin driver so since you are going through the trouble if it was me I'd try to design the adapter to accept something that fits a Kohler. Try to keep the one off stuff to a minimum. Hope you have a good machine shop because you will need it. Hope this makes sense.

Hi Sam,

I appreciate your input. The clutch drive plate does mount to the vanguard hub, without a problem. I blocked up the engine, and attached the drive plate, and took this photo. The PTO is lined up, and the consequential gap is approximately 2" between the clutch and drive plate.

You have the 3 pin driver bolted to the 2000 or 3000 series drive shaft adapter, that has to go. You are going to need to remove it and calculate the length between the face of the 3 pin driver and the cranks adapter.

I've been giving this one a little more thought. You will need to replace your existing 3 pin driver because the one you have does not have the pilot bushing as part of the driver, you will need one like what IH cub cadet parts sells. You can click on his link at the top of the page. Once you get that, slide it in place on the clutch then measure the space between the back of the driver and the engine adapter. Then it's a simple job to make a spacer that will hold the driver and bolt to the engine adapter. Here is a pic of the driver from Marks web site. I don't have a pic of the other side but I'm sure someone here does.

Thanks Sam! That adapter helps to simplify the process.

I sent Yosemite Sam AKA Mark a PM asking him to post a pic of the back side of the 3 pin driver yesterday, guess he is to busy to help. :bigthink:

Just sent him a second PM.

Hi guys, the other night my computer did one of those things where it shuts itself off and "upgrades" or "updates" or some damn thing and now I can't get it to do anything... I just spent 2 & 1/2 hours loading a picture in a different thread.

In this thread, no pictures are coming up, I have however read most of the text, hopefully soon I will have undone whatever this thing has done to itself and be able to respond to the situation within this thread hopefully with a bit of productive input.

For what it's worth, the three pin drivers that I make are a direct replacement for the factory NF/WF drivers NOT the QL ones.

Secondly the hub areas are exactly the same on the back side as the factory ones, however I can possibly modify one to meet the needs of this application.

The third thing and possibly most important, I do not have one of these on the shelf and with my current work-load I'm not sure when I can get one turned out, I should say two because someone else is in line in front of you. I will however do my best.

Can someone catch me up?

Is the 3rd picture in post #1 the adapter that Sam is saying that needs to go?

I see the fan in pic #1 of post #1 is where the pilot bushing mounts.

The part that appears to be attached to the 3 pin driver in the second picture in the first post, is that the same fan from the first picture just from a different angle?

Hi Sam,

You're right on. The third picture in post #1 is the 2000 and 3000 series drive adapter. The other pictures were the factory drive setup that consisted of an aluminum fan, which had a pilot bearing, and bolted to a concave 3 pin driver. The pictures show the fan on the original engine, and then removed from the engine and attached to the clutch assembly.

So the three pin driver that you have, has the same bolt pattern in the center as everything else Cub Cadet, it just doesn't have a pilot bushing/bearing?

Exactly. It's open in the center to fit over the pilot bearing in the fan blade. It bolted to the original engine through the two further spaced holes, but has the other 4, more typical cub cadet holes.

A 1535 uses the same driver you picture,maybe just bolt a adapting flange #1 with the bushing on it.

Hi guys,

I saw on eBay that Midwest Super Cub made an aluminum drive hub for Vanguard engines, just like the one made for Kohler engines. So, I removed the drive assembly from my Vanguard in order to see what the flywheel looks like. Here are the pictures:

Picture #1: The 2000/3000 series drive assembly.

Picture #2: a metal colar that clamps the plastic cooling fan to the flywheel.

Picture #3: The flywheel with the drive assembly and colar removed.

It seems that the flywheel has 4 evenly spaced threaded holes that a hub assembly could bolt to, but two of the holes are used to retain the cooling fan, and the cooling fan is carved out around the other two holes, where the drive assembly mounts. Any ideas how I could bolt a drive hub to the flywheel, keeping it balanced, and still retaining the cooling fan? I thought about boring out the two holes in the fan blade and using 4 shims between the hub and flywheel to keep enough pressure on the fan so that it stays in place. Just a thought... Any other ideas?

I have a couple questions, why do you have spacers under the adapter? I don't see the locating dowel that is supposed to go in the center of the crank shaft and the adapter see attached pic of how it should be.

I didn't set it up this way. I picked up the engine used 3 weeks ago, and this is how it was configured. I just took a picture as I disassembled it.

Well it looks like it came out of an LT2180 and they do have those spacers. But you should still have the dowel in the center. If it was me I'd see if the adapter will fit tight to the flywheel with out the spacers. Your going to end up with a lot of stuff hanging off those 2 bolts that hold the adapter to the flywheel. I'd hate to see it come flying out at speed.

Gotcha. That's why I was wondering if I could replace it with this:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...d=321630890913

Looks like it would work. You will still need to figure out what your going to do for the 3 pin driver because you need a pilot bushing in the center. Other issue is the distance from the back of the flywheel to the clutch location. I suppose you could move the pivot point for the clutch forward but that will entail new brackets and linkage. Do you have any pics and measurements with the engine located where it needs to be in order for the PTO to line up?

Yup. From the front pressure plate to the original adapter, less the 2000 series coupler, it's 3.5". I attached a picture as it sits right now. Since Sam is out of stock on drive adapters, I've been watching a few on eBay. All have the pilot bushing and I'm currently watching one that ends tonight.

I too thought about moving the hanger bracket and throw-out bearing assembly forward, and buying a longer drive shaft. I also found this video that shows a longer gap between the throw-out bearing and pressure plate:

http://youtu.be/bVO2lfjSNPU

I know this a modified 6 pin pulling clutch assembly with heavier springs and such, but I'm wondering if this could be accomplished without the pulling upgrades using a longer spacer behind the rear pressure plate and possibly a heavier spring. Just brain storming... What do you think?

So the motor cannot be moved closer?

Probably not if you want the PTO to line up. Just my 2 cents but I'd rather move the clutch to the engine than have all that stuff overhanging with a long spacer.

I want to keep the functionality of the PTO, which is why I'm trying to find a way of lengthening the driveline. I didn't realize the Vanguard engine was significantly shorter than the opposed twin that originally came in the tractor.

Lew as Sam said in post #2 the Pto should be the starting point. So not really, if he wants to use it.

Edit :I got beat twice! I'm brainstorming too just haven't figured it out yet.:beerchug:

Ohhhhh,maybe make the pto shaft longer...

Just looked at that video and I think your on to something. I see no reason that it wouldn't work. I'd use that adapter that you found on Flea Bay and a 3 pin driver with the bushing in it like a NF driver.

I'm with Sam. I missed the video the first go'round too.:beerchug:

I don't think the crank shaft would like that. It's only a 1" shaft on the front of a Vanguard and he'd need to extend it about 4"s.

I saw it move,a 1535 bracket is angled more forward that an 82 series. Just to let you know.
Now if the guy can make those adapters thicker it may help.

Awesome! Thanks guys for your input! I think my plan will be to get the 3 pin driver and flea bay adapter :biggrin2: and then mock up the engine for an exact measurement on the drive shaft extension. Then, I'll get the drive shaft, shaft spacer, and engine spacers and figure out the mounting holes, after the drive clutch and PTO are lined up.

Any advice on mounting the flea bay adapter with the plastic fan designed to mount between it and the flywheel?

Also, will I be able to use my original wiring harness and ignition switch? Or will it need to be swapped out?

Thanks again for all of your help! :beerchug:

Thinking a little more about this I see no reason that you couldn't use your existing driver and just get the flange that Lew mentioned in post #13 and bolt it up like you had it in post #12. If you go that way all you'll need is a custom drive shaft and the sleeve. Use the existing adapter and the 2000 coupler to mount the flange with the bushing in it. Good thing about the ball bushing is that it will allow a small degree of misalignment. Notice I said small degree of misalignment

I like your thought. It cuts down the expense and custom applications. Do you think a flange will be difficult to find? If I could buy a standard drive plate for less than $30 shipped, would it be just as practical to go with the new drive plate? Just curious which is the most practical route.

703-1492 ! Flange Assy, Drive Shaft $22.37 + shipping.

I like using your existing driver if the clutch will be close to the air inlet for the blower because it's dished so it wont restrict air flow to the engine cooling. I'll PM you on where I found that part price.

Good points. I like this setup, and the price is great too. Thanks!

Hey guys, sorry for going MIA on this project. I suffered an injury to my right hand in May, which required surgery, and then physical therapy. I'm on the mend though, and have recently put more work into the 582. I made a new drive shaft with an extra 2.250" of length, bought a flange plate with pilot bearing, and had a 2.125" spacer machined to connect the clutch spring to the pressure plate. I attached a quick picture of the assembly.

My current issue is identifying the correct mounting height of the engine. I initially measured the height from the floor, to the center of the crank shaft, on the original engine and then repeated this process on the Vanguard. I got approximately 1.250" difference and had 4 round stock spacers cut at this length. Now that the drive-shaft is installed, I've realized that the spacers are too short. I'm just wondering if anyone has advice for calculating the proper engine height?

Are u you using the original engine plate? Did you add in the height of the original engine spacers, #5+6? Not sure why two different height spacers, unless the oil pan is angled it would tilt the motor.

Attachment 67955

Bill

Sorry to hear about the injury. I would start by shimming with washers to get close. Measure the additional height and make new spacers. The work so far looks great! :beerchug:

When I have done repower planning, I have always measured from the mount plate to crankshaft. Hindsight is 20/20, right? :biggrin2:

Edit: I didn't see Bills reply, I didn't know it originally had different sizes front to back. Good question on the mount plate, Bill.

Hey guys, thanks for the input The scary thing is that when I removed the original engine, no spacers were under it. My stepdad removed, and reinstalled, the engine prior to me regaining ownership, so I'm wondering if he failed to put the spacers back. This also explains why my new engine has a forward cant. I'm using a piece of key stock to gauge the gap between my drive plate and clutch disk. I assume that when the key stock fits the same top, bottom, left, right I have the engine positioned correctly. No matter how many fender washers I've shimmed with, I can't get the same gap top/bottom.

Has any body tried to repower a 104 with vanguard oposing twin? I have 3, ranging from 17-19.5. Just curiouse. My k301 is starting to smoke, only when its under a decent load when pushing or pulling.

So I took a look at the original engine this evening. It looks like spacers are cast on to the block.