1864 motor question
 

Question on the 1864 after running I idle down and let run for a few moments the shut off. It wants to continue running even with the key in the off position we call it dieseling in my part of the country, any advice on this issue. Also is or was there a gas gauge available for these? thanks in advance..

If I read right the 1864 has a Kohler command engine. Proper shutoff procedure for the command engine is to speed it up to at least 1/2 throttle and then shut it off.

thanks for the insight, but wont it back fire then some of my other kohlers will do that if they are warm.......I will try and let ya know. thanks much. Btw...is this a common issue with the command motors?

Fuel shut-off solenoid probably isn't working right, or the spring is broken or the rubber tip is bad. Pull it out and have a look. I don't recommend shut down above idle.

Found this old thread on Yesterday's Tractor that may be a little help. Close to the same issue you are having.

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cg...rdent&th=50046

I call bull on that. The fuel solenoid shuts off gas at the base of the emulsion tube. That's where ALL fuel that goes through the carb comes from. It IS NOT just plugging the high speed circuit.

J-Mech

Got a pic of the fuel solenoid. ...just getting used to the new technology.

Thanks in advance

I read somewhere, I think on Lawnsite, to never shut down a Command at idle. It can even cause damage to the engine, that is what I read anyway. I have always shutdown my 1863 at a fast idle and it never backfires. Just my experience.

I have a Cub Cadet M60 Tank with a 25 Kohler Command for going on 12 years now. It will do the same thing, diesel if turned off at idle, and backfire out the exhaust if turned off at mid throttle. I was told back when it was new to always let it run at full throttle for a few minutes after mowing (to cool down not under load) then turn it off still at full throttle. It always shuts off without dieseling or backfiring, and does not flood as you do not smell un-burnt gas and it will fire right back up. I do the same on my 2084 and my 2284 with no issues. I know it goes against what a person thinks is proper, but that is what is recommended by CC and it works. Providing the solenoid is working properly, this should work.

If that's how you shut down the command it certainly goes against everything that I have learned over the years . With that said I have never owned a command either. I am still getting used to the seat pressure switch. It might get by passes. Lol

I finally get to disagree with you on something!! :biggrin2:

According to the Kohler manual, shut down is best done at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. I've experienced the "hard to shut down" problem where it almost seems to backfire but if you shut down at at least 1/2 throttle, it shuts down like a dream. This is what I've been doing and so far, so good :beerchug:

You boys go ahead and shut your engines off however you want. :bash2:

If everything is set like it should be and working properly, it won't diesel, and it won't backfire. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Disagreeing with me is fine...... just remember, I've worked on a few more engines than you have.

You may have good luck this way, and the manual may state that, but I'm not shutting my motors down this way. If set right, they will shut off at idle.

**EDIT**

That said:
The main reasons for a motor "dieseling" when shut down are;
*Fuel solenoid not killing the fuel
*Motor is still too hot, needs to idle longer and cool down
#1 reason.... low idle is too fast. Set the low speed lower.

I am by no means trying to disagree with the experience you have, nor say what you have learned/experienced is wrong. All I'm trying to say is up this point, I haven't heard/read any compelling arguments against following what the manual says. From what I've read on this site, the Kohler manuals are gospel :biggrin2: As far as I'm concerned, all is well that ends well :beerchug:

Grandpa always said to let the EGT on the 1086 get below 300 before shutting down. Had that drilled in my head at 7 yrs old. Its carried over.... to everything. Idle for a few min and put it to bed calmly. I don't go run a mile and fall asleep right after!

Just wanted to contribute :beerchug:

You responded before I changed my post. See my edit on post #13.

The EGT thing is VERY true!

I love your analogy, I have used the same one on here more than once!!
An engine doesn't like to be shut off right away after a "hard run" any more than you would run a mile in a dead sprint, and then just lay down at the finish line. :beerchug:

I run mine wide open to cool down with no load, then idle for 10-15 seconds and as I am turning the key off go to WOT. That is how the PO advised me to do it and I have no backfiring if I do it this way. My 1864 halfway on the throttle is still idle so even the supplemented way goes boom.

Sorry the compressed pic is hard to read but the original manual says shutdown from SLOW setting and the supplement says halfway between SLOW and FAST.

Wow! All this just to shut off an engine, I'm impressed. Not trying to stir the pot. Just my observations with back firing or dieseling Commands. I've had some that as long as I let them cool off for a minute or two were just fine at idle, some liked 1/2 throttle, one I had to pull the choke and turn it off at the same time. I don't think that the shut down solenoid instantly shuts off the fuel, reason I say that is if you try disconnecting the kill wire to the mags and then shut it off it will run for a short while before it actually runs out of fuel. I have a neighbor with an MTD that has a CV20 in it, she insists on turning off hot even though I have told her not to do that repeatedly, still can't figure out why the muffler hasn't blown out. See what works for you is my suggestion. If you can get it to behave at idle that's always the best. :beerchug:

Too funny Ryan. Lately everyone's been told to read the manual and now the manual's not right. Well said and good point! :beerchug:

Amen brother! I shut my zero turn CC off at idle and she/he never diesels. My smokers do though. :bigthink: :biggrin2:
Problem is my zero turn has a 26 horse Kawasaki. Uh oh, a different can of worms...............:biggrin2:

Find" t mean to add fuel to the fire , so I went to my owners manual......it says quote white the throttle 1/2 between idle and gastritis the key to the off position. I am going to try ...Will let everybody know how it works.

I have the kohler Command CH23/CH680, manual says to shut down "position throttle control between half and full throttle; stop engine"

This is works, and is santioned by The manufacturer. My engine diesels like a bastard if this procedure is not followed. That my friends is all the truth you need. It is what it is.

To the OP:
Looks like I'm the only one who thinks this is fixable problem. After all, it's in the manual to shut it down at mid throttle.

So, here's your choice. Do it "by the book". Or slow down the low idle, and let it cool a little longer. Only thing I ask is, if you try my suggestion, come back and tell us if it works.

I'm done on this thread. :bash2:

Jonathon, don't get all pissy on this, there are new things to learn everyday. My CH18 was like that, and this CH23 I have now is brand new and diesels horribly of this procedure is not done. I don't think it is mechanical fix in the solenoid. The darn thing is new.

It just is what it is.

Well, then we just disagree. I think it's a fixable problem, and I have a couple years experience with engines to back that up. Never had a gas motor that I couldn't make it quit dieseling at shut down. Just because it's new doesn't mean a thing. I've seen plenty of new stuff that wasn't set up correctly. I encourage you to set the idle speed lower on it, and let it cool for a minimum of 2 min before shutting it off and see if that fixes it.

I'm not getting "pissy". I make a living fixing engines, and on this thread there are a bunch of guys saying "it is what it is", without ever attempting a fix. Yeah, it's a little frustrating to say it's fixable, then have to argue about it. I would have expected more of an "oh.... well, I'll try that and see if it helps" attitude not a "your wrong" attitude.

John,

Without the intention of trying to egg on this debate (I'm really not), I feel like I want to speak my part, being on the other end of the spectrum as you. Coming from a place of learning, I (and many others on this site and this thread) are trying to wrap out minds around what you say vs what the manual says. I, knowing your background and having spoken with you on more than one occasion, put a LOT of stock into what you say, the advice you give. 99.999999% of the stuff that comes out of your mouth and through your keyboard, I (and, again, most on this site) believe without second guessing. However, when a manual written by the manufacturer says to do one thing and you say do another, that instantly creates a conflict in our minds. We want to trust both of you, and why shouldn't we? But, since you are both speaking opposite arguments, we have a hard time deciding what to do. We are all just trying to learn here. Please don't take the people who are "arguing" with you the wrong way; they trust you (at least I believe they do), but they also trust Kohler. IDK, maybe they are looking for proof beyond "I work on engines". Maybe they have searched around other forums and heard the "half throttle then off" advice. Maybe they just don't believe you. Maybe they don't believe Kohler. Honestly, IDK. I just see this thread going down a bad road and don't want you or anyone else taking things the wrong way.

That's it, that's my peace keeping speel :beerchug:

Oh, and for what it's worth: I, for one, let my Command idle for a couple minutes to cool down, then rev to about half throttle and shut it off. Since I've been doing this, I've never had a problem. Is it the right way to do it? Depends who you ask. With the K series, the Mag's, etc, I idle for a few minutes, then shut down at idle.

Is ok, understand the whole 2nd opinion thing, Doctors get pissed at too. So do I at my job as I do see myself as an expert in what I do. No offense please.

Lets put it there then. See if someone can do as you say and see if this fixes the design situation.

Ryan I appreciate your candor. And FWIW I see your point.

Let me see if I can explain why I believe that Kohler says what it does about the engine. This is pure speculation on my part, and I am not speaking for Kohler. I have worked for dealerships in my past and been part of equipment "upgrades" and even spent time in training for new machines. IH combines specifically.

When a company like Kohler finds a problem with their product, there several ways to deal with it.

They can:
Let the dealer deal with the issue.
Incite a recall.
Or put out a service bulletin on it.

Being that the original manual says to shut it off from a low idle setting, and then a supplement was added saying to shut it off from mid throttle, my guess is Kohler knew some engines had issues with dieseling. Instead of calling in a bunch of motors for a "non major" issue at a HUGE expense to Kohler. They instead found out that running the engine at a little higher idle gave the engine enough velocity to burn off the fuel still coming into the engine as the fuel cut-off did it's job. Too much of a lag time, too hot on engine, idle set too fast...... whatever the issue, Kohler didn't care because it cost far less to print a couple million one page supplements than it did to fix the issue. It pleased the customer, the complaints went away..... problem solved. Can it be fixed? I'm convinced it can. I am also as deeply convinced that Kohler didn't want to spend the money on 1 million customers complaints when they could just tell them to shut it off at a little higher throttle setting and it worked. Just my theory, and IMHO it fits the bill well.

:beerchug::beerchug:

Very well said Ryan. I think alot of us agree with ya on this. And here we are again. :Huh: :HeadScratch:

See, now THAT makes sense! :beerchug:

:beerchug:

Bravo guys!
Excellent conclusion. I really thing John hit it near the bullseye with his final explanation. Remember, just because it's OEM doesn't mean it's right or even the best way to do it. You would think that a company as old as GM could make a car with an ignition switch that would work. Oh well, you could always just let it run out of gas, that would stop it. LOL!

Thanks for your input and dilligence today, J! I learned something!:beerchug:

My 1864 never really dieseled but would backfire if I didn't open the throttle as I turned the key off. Today after 2.5 hours of mowing WAY too tall grass I made a point to let it run for a minute WOT and then let it idle for a solid 2-3 minutes with the hood open. Turned the key and it shut right down, just like it should. Patience is always rewarded. Thanks again for your input. :beer2: