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Strength of the creeper?
This topic has been touched on here and there on other threads but I really wanted to focus on it here. I know Ill get some mixed opinions here but does the addition of the creeper lesson the strength of your drive shaft assembly?
I think we can all agree that the creeper slows your tractor down via gear ratio. That being said, technically your gaining more power now out of your engine with that speed trade off. Now I say technically because this power puts new stress on parts plus stress on the creeper itself. Since my thought is that cub cadet introduced the creeper as a tool to offer your trator more speeds rather then power, do you folks think its also strong to take the stress of pulling larger weight? Here's another reason I ask. Ok I know Zero, nada, zip about pulling other then the obvious. Your tractors job is to pull large amounts of weight. If that's the case, and the creeper gear gives your tractor more power why doesn't more pullers use these on their smaller stock tractors? I can see why they would not for their hopped up, higher rpm engine models but wouldn't it be ideal for your stock engine entrees? Also, the 169 (16hp size engine) was only offered as hydro and that has me wondering if this was because the stock clutch and creeper could not handle that size engine. Please understand that these are all questions and I'm not offering any first hand experience but trying to gain some knowledge from others first hand experience. Thanks for any input here :) |
As I understand it, creeper gearing was to slow the machine down while keeping RPMs up to give implements like snow machines and tillers going at their best rpm while keeping the tractor from going to fast for the work involved.. Not for pulling power.
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I have used a 102 with creeper since the mid 70s. That statement in no way makes me an expert but have never had anything broken due to the use of the creeper. I did have problems with the drive shaft coupler roll pins coming loose and several times had the roll pin that connects the yoke inside the creeper come out. I have never tested the pulling power but would assume if you cannot pull something in high range most likely you will not be able to pull it in low range. Pullers rely on wheel speed to keep them going and since you must stop to change to low range that would be where you would be scored at as you have to keep the sled moving.
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The creeper is the weak link. It is not for more power it is a gear reduction assembly for using a blower or tiller and nothing else.
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12 horse power is the largest engine that IH Cub Cadet came with. By time the higher horse power came to the market the hyrdo Cub Cadets were the number one seller. 4 out of the top 5 lowest production are manual trans. Another reason is the stock clutch could hold the power. They could have put a heavier spring in it........makes the clutch pedal push harder. I had problems with clutch slipage in my hop up 100 when I pull a moldboard plow. The only way I could fix the problem was to add a heavier spring and a kevlar disc. We had a gent that had a creeper in his 100 at plow day. By the end of the day the creeper was making some funny/strange sounds. When he removed the creeper it came out in parts. You loose the drirect link to the tranns with a creeper in the driveline. |
I have one on my 582 for tilling only. love it. my hydro drive pushes the snow thrower.
if i had it to do over again I would use a WF hydro drive to till with. I still use the clutch on the 582 to slow it down a little more. LOW 1 is still to fast for my tiller. |
This topic always seems to get debate. The same debate occurs with the "big" IH's and the Torque Amplifier. (Similar topic) I'm not trying to debate, but I can explain torque and how it affects the driveline. But I too have some questions about some previous statements.
I agree, that IH mostly had in mind that adding a creeper would give the operator more gear selections, and that the main purpose was to slow the tractor down. I however contend, that IH would not have put a gear reduction drive on the machine if it couldn't handle the load given it. That said, I do not argue that it is the weak link in the "chain" of the drive train. Lets do it this way. For this equation there can be several variables, so lets set some hard number to use. Let's assume that a stock Kohler K301 (12HP) is capable of producing 20 ftlbs of torque. (I'm sure that is high, but 20 is an easy number to work with, and I couldn't find an exact number.) Lets also assume that we can get all power from the engine to the ground. (No wheel slip.) *Disclaimer: If I get a trans ratio incorrect, forgive me. It will change the results yes, but doesn't really change the point. Now, 20ftlbs going into the creeper then becomes 80ftlbs because it is a 4:1 ratio. Going on to gear reduction drive, a ratio of 6:1 and now that torque becomes 480 ftlbs. Through first gear, 3:1, 1440 ftlbs. Ring and pinion, 4.6:1, 6624 ftlbs. Now comparatively without the creeper, in to out is 20ftlbs in, 1656ftlbs out. WOW! Quite a difference! Now we all know that you would never be able to get all that torque to the ground, and even if you did, something is going to break. IH knew you couldn't get it ALL there, so no big deal. So.... here is the deal. Torque goes backward through the drivetrain as well as it does the other way. That engine only produces torque when it is put under a load. So the driveline only can withstand as much load as traction will allow, and as much torque as the motor can produce. The load on the driveshaft is the same, creeper or not, because the motor can only produce "X" amount of torque. Once again, I state, that I do not argue that a creeper is the weak link when in use. When it is not in use I cannot see how, unless it is not in tip top shape, that is would be any different than direct drive (no creeper). Which brings me to my questions. Quote:
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I state again, I'm not tying to start a debate, or an argument. I agree a creeper is a weak link, but I don't buy the argument that when installed it is any more prone to break when not in use. Or the argument that it won't handle loads. As far a tractor pulling is concerned, that is a different ball game. With A LOT of variables. As stated wheel speed is VERY important in pulling, so that is why they don't use them. You need power AND speed when tractor pulling. It's like getting a running start. More momentum. |
So I never thought of one of your points. With the creeper in high isn't it just a direct link now? Honestly I'm just trying to learn plus figure out how I want to build up my tractor. I know I want to put a larger engine in. I'm looking for either a 14 or 16 hp upgrade. I also have a creeper but don't want to put it into a tractor that is going to break it. These parts are rare and rather expensive so I'm trying my best to learn from all you folks and build up a pretty sweet tractor :biggrin2:
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so then , what will you be doing with the creeper in low to break it?
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the week link is the spring pins in the drive shaft. thats what there for , to break if drive line gets in a bind.
my creeper came with hardened gears and solid pins |
garnold, I put a creeper in my 148R build. I took a 14hp out of a 147 and put it in a 108, hence the "148" designation. I don't see any problem with that, you won't break the creeper. As J Mech has explained, it will only see the torque needed to spin the wheels, which isn't that much in most circumstances.
I'm no expert, but it's hard for me to see the creeper as a weak link in the drive train other than for the fact that it has more parts that can break. But a properly lubed and adjusted creeper should take anything the tractor is likely to see, regardless of what engine is in it. |
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Thank you guys for all this information :-)
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Here is a pitcure of the internals parts in a creeper for those who haven't seem the inside of creeper: http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/s...0-A/0098100017 A IH Cub Cadet without a creeper has a drive shaft going into a coupler that goes into the imput shaft in the trans. A IH Cub Cadet that has a creeper has a shorten drive shaft going into a coupler them imput creeper shaft #7. The creeper shaft has a small gear which Cub Cadet calls Direct Drive Coupling #9 that a shifter collar #10 and connects the power to driven coupling assembly #6. Weak point is the direct coupling #9. Now if your is using creeper the shifter collar #10 moves over planet carrier assembly #11. The planet carrier assembly #11 has 3 planet gears #12 that spin around an imput shaft cage #16. The shifter collar #10 engages the gear on the planet carrier Assembly #11 and connects the power to to the driven coupling assembly. The weak area is the 3 planet gears #12. One other area that can cause problems is the creeper shift yoke #23. Wear points are where the creeper shift yoke #23 rides against the shift collar #10. As for not having a direct drive......you have a shift collar #10 that moves plus the gears that are not big enough to do the job. Sounds like a wreck waiting to happen. You can put 14/16 horse power engines in your Cub Cadets. It's hard to use all that power to the ground unless you put some time and money into the clutch. Been there done that. The only time I had drive shaft pins break is driver dumping the clutch or hole pin goes into is egg shape and the best one is using a wrong/cheap pin. Its your Cub Cadet.....install a creeper if you want to....I wouldn't. |
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Merk Well said. Once told to me back in my dirt bike days by a Bultaco dealer "If it ain't there it can’t break" lesson learned. Just my 2 cents and I have never owned a creeper but it looks from a design standpoint like a problem looking for a place to happen. I would only use one if I was running a blower or a tiller. Again just my 2 cents. Please don't hate me for this. :biggrin2: :beerchug: |
Good explanation Merk.
When the creeper is used within its designed capabilities, it'll be fine. Start adding power, bigger tires, pulling excessive weight, etc is where you find the weakest link. At one time, I had a 122 with creeper and a 125. Personally I liked the 125 ( hydro ) better. I had slow when I wanted slow and faster with a push of the lever. That said, it's also why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream :biggrin2: |
i concur, like said, I only use it with my tiller.
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IH Cub Cadet direct drive
The Direct Drive system found on a IH Cub Cadet started with the 70/100 Series, and was a major selling point for IH Cub Cadet. A under-drive unit was needed to slow the tractor ground speed down to allow for higher engine R.P.M operation, where one can now successfully and effectively use IH Cub Cadet approved implements such as the snow blowers, Sweepsters, Mott mowers, sickle bar mowers, and tillers. However, there is no substitute when it comes to having the most possible amount of torque transfer with the least amount chance of failure than that of the mechanical energy transfer system: {direct drive no under-drive} gear drive transmission. It has been suggested to me, that operating a IH Cub Cadet equipped with a creeper gear for such uses other than the IH recommendation of use is not recommended. My thinking on using a creeper would be good for everything but having a tug of war on concrete, and pulling a 10 inch bottom plow. Again, just what I think I can use a tractor equipped with a creeper for.
Make doubt, a gear drive with creeper or with out creeper is the best complement to a hydro drive IH Cub Cadet. The fact that someone can make a gear drive even slower sounds pretty neat. I wonder how that is if not than more than one creeper unit is on board in full operation with lower gear ratios : of course! :bigthink: Six inches per minute,.......... |
Like I stated, I don't disagree with anything posted. It is definitely a weak point. :beerchug:
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well you can say it a weak like if you want but I have one in my 73 and I use it when pushing dirt I have had no problem with it and it hauls my big dump trailer too.
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No it cannot be shifted on the fly
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Please forgive me for being so late getting to this party.
I understand that anyone who has never had a creeper gear in their hand may not understand just exactly how one works and what is involved. However for those of us who have, it should be blatantly obvious that the creeper gear assembly can not possibly be as durable as a solid piece of 5/8" diameter steel. That said, to break it down a little further, as Merk pointed out earlier, parts numbered 6, 7, 9, 10 are definitely the weak links period! To give my opinion to the question/s that that this thread originally started out about... If one wants to install a creeper behind a 14 or 16 hp engine and use it for specific purposes (blowing snow or tilling) I don't think one would encounter any problems that would not show up behind a 7, 10 or 12 hp engine. However, if you intend to use this same tractor to jerk logs out of the woods, or pull a moldboard plow, you are asking for trouble. A creeper gear, engaged or not, does not and will not have the same durability as a the above mentioned solid drive shaft. When I put a Cub Cadet together, I first determine what it is going to be used for, and then I add or remove the accessories/components necessary to make it be the way I want it to be. If it's not gonna be tillin ground, blowin snow or runnin a sickle bar, I leave the creeper gear out. |
I have a 18hp B&S twin. my creeper has been installed for a wile now. I broke a pin in the drive shaft last winter when my push blade hit a tree root by the driveway. I was in high 2 when it broke.
Id say if it were in low 3 I dont think I would have been going fast enough to shock the drive shaft to brake that pin let alone braking the creeper |
Can't argue with the analysis so far. It all makes sense.
To move it out of the hypothetical, has anyone actually broken a creeper gear pushing snow, plowing a field, mowing grass or towing a cart or logs out of the woods? My thought up to this point (which, based on this discussion, I'm rethinking) was that a creeper was an accessory that made the tractor more versatile, rather than restricting its possible uses. Seems unlikely that the engineers at IH would design a weak link into the tractor's drive train that couldn't take anything the tractor was capable of delivering. |
I have to agree that the creeper is the weakest link in the drive train. I have used and abused my 102 since the mid 70s with the creeper installed but about 95% of the time the creeper was in high. I used that tractor to haul loads of firewood about 3/4 mile from the woods to my house. Those loads were hauled in a home made trailer nearly 3 feet wide and 6 feet long and about 2 foot high sides. I figured that was about a half a pickup load. I did this for 7 - 10 years. The lane had two small hills that had to be traveled and my creeper did not break. From this I still say the creeper is the weakest link but doubt it is very weak. I have always properly shifted the creeper as per the instructions. When using a snow blower in any deep snow that creeper is indespensable. Without a creeper the only way to slow your ground speed is to throttle down which slows the rpms of the snow blower making it less effective.
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I agree with your last paragraph that IH wouldn't design and release a driveline part that wouldn't stand up to the use the tractor was designed for. I put the creeper in the tractor with the idea of getting a tiller. Never happened but later, I got some hyro tractors and a tiller and used the tiller on those tractors. In my opinion, the jerking back and forth of using a tiller in rough ground with a manual transmission would be much harder on the drive line than just using the tractor in a dead pull. |
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IH did have a problem with the early 560 farm tractors and some bulldozer models. When IH release the 560 and bulldozer they were the number 1 ag company in the world. The early 560s had rear end issues resulting in recalling all early production 560s. John Deere had a new model out that would do the same work as a 560 without rear end problems. John Deere became #1 ag company and the rest is history. If it happen to the big tractors it can happen to the Cub Cadets. As I said in an earlier post.....It's your Cub Cadet-do with it what you want to. I wouldn't have a creeper in an IH Cub Cadet that pulls a moldboard plow on a regular basis. |
I really thank you for all these different views on the topic. Since I do plan to plow snow and maybe snow blow I might have to think about putting the creeper in. I also think that what ill be pulling around in my cart does not even come close to some of the work that others have put their creepers through. Finally, since my 108 still has the 10hp in it and I still haven't found a 14/16 upgrade im pretty sure I won't be putting enough stress on the thing. Now if I do find my 16hp I might choose to pull it out just to be safe. Thank you all again!
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Here is a few links to a mild horse power build up for your 10 horsepower Kohler:
http://kirkengines.com/downloads/KillerKohlerPartI.pdf http://kirkengines.com/downloads/KillerKohlerPartII.pdf I did the same build up to my IH Cub CAdet 100. It pulls my 10 moldboard plow with ease. |
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