50 Hp Articulating 128 Drawings
 

I have owned this Cub cadet for over a year.
I've owned a 1.6 liter VW Diesel for about 6 months.
I have had many thoughts on merging these two.
After much research and a whole lot of late nights this is what I've come up with.

This will not be a show queen.
It will not be a competitive puller.
She will be a work horse.

closer pictures

Front Drive Axle will be used as a hydraulic reservoir. Return line would lubricate chain drive

AWESOME! Looks like one very cool build! :beerchug:

Nice! What's your plan for the shifters. Looks like they may be a little tricky to get to.

the plan is to use a system very similar to what is used on front wheel drive cars. A cable operated system. Haven't settled on anything specific yet. still giving some thought to shifting.

I like it! Will be following your build!:beerchug:

I like it and your drawing.
Don't know nuttin about articulated machines but don't you need the u-joint to be right in-line with the pivot?

That's how it is done on wheel loaders but they allow the rear axle to oscillate to keep all four wheels in contact with the ground. In order to do that I think this would get very complex.

No the u-joint doesn't need to be right at the pivot point,if you have ever looked at a brush-hog , mower conditioner , or any big pto operated equip their not at the center of the pivot. Looks like a interesting build! If I were doing I would make it a hydro,wouldn't have to worry about fabing up a way of shifting with cables or anything. Just my 2cents!

make sure your u-joints are rated for the correct rpm and torque rating. This could be a pretty neat build. Personally I would lean towards hydraulic drive, since running 2 hoses to the back half is way less complicated

Are the gears cut in the rear ends to work backwards? The front transmission is being driven backwards, I wonder if the gears mesh that way OK?

RPM has been a very serious consideration. Especially for the chain drive.
I don't know about gears, but as long as bearing oiling isn't a problem I'm willing to give it a try.
I'm in a tough spot because if I turn around front drive I will have too much weight hanging over front axle.
I thought about Hydro drive but that limits the amount of workable power I can use from my diesel engine.

I really would like to use hydraulics to drive transmissions. I considered running CASE 446 drive motors instead of gear reduction. Problem is the CASE 446 runs nearly a 1:1 ratio in high range. I haven't been able to figure out what RPM the drive motor runs in, but it appears to be very high torque and very low RPM. I could run some wheel motors if I found some cheap enough but it looks like what I need might break the bank.

I have thought about Mechanical front assist. Too much gear work. I've thought about articulation with a "wheel loader" front axle that pivots, it would be difficult with such a large transaxle.

I posted these drawings to help me work through some of the unforeseen bugs, so thank you, and continue with your own thoughts. I may revisit Hydraulic drive a little.

there is a guy up this way who has about 10 acres FULL of small engine stuff and what not...i mean TONS of garden tractors..i bring this up just because i saw a couple at his place unlike anything i had ever seen before...one i think was name holder from germany, and the other a b.h.r, or b.h.s maybe, from spain..and they are diesel articulating garden tractors with full hydraulics...they look like this..his are older and of course outside and weathered, but very cool...maybe some info or design from something like this would help...good luck with your build, will be great...

I am very impressed with the time and thought that you have put into this! Looking forward to watching this build!


If you noticed this Sam, I'm sorry for pointing at it. If you, or anyone else missed it, the issue of articulation and oscillation are both addressed in this joint. It is the same joining system used on a 4-wheel drive articulated tractor.
Attachment 44881

By using the "double" upper link and the lower "ball joint" the tractor will oscillate, and pivot both at the pivot joint.


As far as gearing is concerned. The Farmall Cub used the same transmission but ran it directly off the engine. Now, the engine in the F-Cub ran the other way, but in those tractors it didn't have the reduction housing. It slowed the gearing down at the final drives. So, we know that the trans gears can handle a higher RPM is necessary. However, the topshaft in the F-Cub and the Cub Cadet do turn the same direction, but the ring gear is on the left side of an F-Cub and on the right side of a CC. So, they can be flipped. Now, as far as can the gears in the trans run the other way..... I don't see why not because they are straight cut, not helical. Also note: it is not the front trans that is running backwards, it is the rear one. It would appear that is would be the other way around, but remember, the motor is turning in the opposite direction as a Kohler would. By putting the front transaxle in in reverse, it will actually be driven the "correct" way, and the rear one will run in reverse. Still, I can see no issue with this at all. Actually, this will mean that the ring gear will have to be put on the left hand side of BOTH transmissions as viewed from the actual rear of the trans.

Jon

Guess I didn't explain what I was taking about very well. Double07 asked about the U-Joint being in line with the pivot. With the top link being used the deal with articulation and twisting it would be tough to have the drive shaft U-Joint dead center like on a big wheel loader. Just my 2 cents but I think I would use CV joints on that shaft.

Cool build will be watching this

Me too. :ThumbsUp:

This is soooo ambitious. I really have a lot of respect for folks that have the talent and skills to do something like this. I hope this happens and will be watching and learning all the way.

I've taken comments into consideration and have shared my plans via email. I am currently working on a couple other drafts that I will share shortly. If anyone would like a copy please pm me and I will share them. I have spent a lot of time trying to research a 4wd cub cadet. Some of the best are built by those who have machine shops readily available. I have machining available but the milling would cost me some form of cash. Lathe work isn't a problem. As I've worked through many problems, I've read many questions posted by individuals looking to build some form of 4wd cub. So here are my criteria that I've set for myself.

1) Need to use as much of Iron from my 128 as practical.
2) Any added systems need to be readily available & fairly inexpensive.
3) Try to keep exotic machining costs to a minimum.

I plan on sharing a few ideas that have crossed my mind. After talking with J-Mech I've realized some possible issues with my current design. Trying to synchronize two transmissions, although not impossible could prove to be an issue in a real world environment. My second concern is having u-joints and my double roller chain withstand 3,500 rpm peaks @ 50 hp.

I think all three issues may not be that serious. BUT I was given an idea I really like... The idea of having a transmission off the engine with a homemade transfer case. My biggest problem is finding a small transmission, this caused me to create another idea.

Currently I am looking to begin construction January 2014. I will share my most current design shortly.

without being familar with your engine...how do you plan to limit it to 3500 rpm? the 3600rpm issue has been solved already, parts number and all ( http://cubfaq.com/davek.html ). but I would argue that cvs are the way to go. unless i missed it, you are sill using 2 manual transmissions right? By Synchronizing, are you refering to making sure that you have everything in the same gear? there was a guy who actually switched his articulated cub from hydro to gear ( http://www.cubcadetman.com/content/i...vids&Itemid=65 ) designing your transfer case may be the trickiest (most costly) part. so far as chains capable of the rpm, maybe consider a timing chain, but I dont know how many chaings that you may need to stack to transmit your torque. a direct gear transfer case is likely your easiest option, that will be the most failure resistant (choose gears and bearings wisely, since they are not all rated for the speeds and loads described here.

RPM would be manually regulated i.e. foot/ hand control.
A VW 1.6 liter engine top rpm is about 4,000.
For hyd pump reasons I will try not to run it above 3,500.

I may go with cvs joints as they seem to be a more forgiving option.
I have seen some threads with an updated "Artie" machine. I had thought of contacting him about his creation. One of my biggest concerns continues to be the Transfer Case as you mentioned. I have considered using chains and gears out of a snowmobile as they can handle 150 hp and gear down a 9,000 rpm engine. I think that a #60 double roller would hold, off road guys use them for custom transfer cases in their pickups. Engine overhang weight is another large concern of mine.

I am shying away from a twin transmission design. Leaning toward a single 128 trans w/ Hyd assist. Running a smaller front axle would allow me to place it under engine better, reducing or eliminating engine overhang.

I have a couple drawings that I am going to share yet. I think that of my three final plans they are all viable. In the end it becomes a matter of personal preference and budget.

Here is my rendition of what an articulating tractor my look like with transmission mounted to engine and a gear reducing transfer case mounted to transmission.

For the purpose of these diagrams I've removed most of gears in transmission leaving only 3rd gear and permanently locking it into gear. The gear reduction has been removed and transmission is being driven directly through input shaft.

A GM third member front axle would be used as front drive.

The most difficult part of this build would be either modifying a transmission to work outside of it's intended transaxle role or to find a transmission small enough that is intended for standalone use. I have yet to find a suitable transmission.

I share this drawing because I believe that there is some real potential for a design of this nature. I'm not sure I have the funds for the machining that I would like to do.

Here is the complete picture of this design
I believe that the front axle could be moved forward more to reduce overhang.

Looks like it's going to get expensive and complicated. :bigthink:

This one I like, except for locking third gear. I would probably use a hydro rear.
I probably won't be doing one like this. I thought that I would share this drawing to help others with ideas they may have.
I have a drawing that I will be sharing shortly. After conversations with the great members of this site I've had to change my original plan. Although it may be buildable, I question it's everyday reliability with two transmissions that need to be synchronized.

After looking over this and other sites and seeing others who have a lot of questions and ideas, I thought it would be good to give others some ideas and drawings to help spur imagination. I really want a full-time 4wd machine but there are some pretty big hurdles to try and get over on a tractor this small.

Really interesting stuff. I'll have to start following this thread to learn how things progress.

I think this is only true as a gear drive machine. There have been many done with hydro's. It is much simpler. Just sayin.

J-Mech,
I know you are quite familiar with the hydrostats and how they operate. (I ready your FAQ, very well written, BTW.).

Regarding the dual hydro 4WD idea. could one pump drive both motors? Is there a way to take the output of one of the hydro internal pumps and run fluid to both internal motors (for a pair of hydrostatic axles) By tapping into the hydro front cover?

Or if you can't do that, how do you solve the swashplate positioning for a pair of hydrostats so the two axles stay close to sync'd.?

That's a really good question. But, no, not with the sunstrand unit. The pump wouldn't be large enough to drive both motors, and there is no way to plumb it up. You can sync both the swashplates together with adjustable linkage, but it takes work. Best example I can provide is on extrememotorworks page. If you go to the home page, there is a pic of a articulated 1650 Aarons dad built. It is by far one of the best done articulated ones I have seen. It doesn't give any details on the build, but I have seen it and it's very well done.

I can't draw on the computer so I will try to explain. You basically just tie the two hydro's together with linkage, preferably directly without the spring swashplate, (the part that wears out all the time) and then put the cushioning spring on the linkage that ties to the handle. In other words, one cushioning spring for both hydros, so the stay synced. Honestly, the hard part is the linkage going though the pivot. I hope that made sense. :beerchug:

Thanks for the compliment on the write up!

You can do an all hydraulic setup. This was designed by one of our members. Big John AKA Cadplans

https://www.cadplans.com/cadtrac/cadtrac-1500.html

You may want to take some time and talk with him. :bigthink:

if you are on face book look up Robert Rock he is a master fab guy he uses the case 446 rears and builds a nice 4 wheel drive articulating tractor he has made 1 in every color over the past few years. you can friend him and ask him some ? he is a very nice guy Joe

Cant find him on fb?

i just looked him up .he is on red squire which is a wheel horse site . he said to look for robert rock in michigan on fb and friend him to see all of his creations. he just finished up a wheel horse 520h arti. that is very sweet. hope you can find him , he has a lot of know how. Joe Allen

I cannot seem to find a robert rock. It would be great to see a picture of his articulating machine. I like his custom cad machine but fear that 3.5 mph would be a little slow. Very neat. Red Square site has a very neat belt drive C-101 4x4. I am working on a hybrid articulator design that has a gear shift rear with hydraulic assist front. I have to complete some diagrams and I will share them. All parts should be readily available and reasonably priced. I cannot seem to come up with a fulltime 4wd machine that would not require some kind of extreme machining.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/galle...576-c-101-4x4/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-61aaKItAE

With the front pulley being so small I wonder how much slip the from transmission gets?

extreme put a v6 in a hydro anyone know if its been worked much does the hydro handle that power ok

Prior to getting my VW Diesel, I was going to put a 2.8 v6 into my cub. I contacted Extreme and read many of their posts on that project. To the best of my knowledge it's pretty much stock, with modifications done to accept an engine installed with front of engine facing front of tractor.

I had too many issues with trying to figure out how to make hyd. pump work properly with the v6 setup in my 128. Once I got my Diesel I dropped the v6 idea.

Last I knew that machine was for sale.

Steiner articulated mowers use a single variable speed pump coupled to the engine, then hoses to run the motor side of the system, one per axle.

How much does that engine weigh, might be excessivly heavy for the axles etc, and may end up lifting the back end off the ground?

if your going to use a gm axel in the front I use one in the back so you don't have to worry about it jumping out of gear. Just my :TwoCents: but it looks like a great project thou