Troubleshooting weak starter on 1650.... looking for advice
 

On Monday I attempted to start my 1650 that had been sitting at around 12 degrees F all day and it would barely turn over. It ran the previous day at 30 degrees F. I thought the battery might be weak so attempted to jump start from my car. I ended up getting the started hot and it started smoking so I gave up for the night. I purchased a new 300CCA battery.... charged it and am getting the same weak starter that just barely turns the engine over. No I'm thinking it's either a bad wire connection or maybe a smoked starter. Thoughts on troubleshooting??? Should I try using jumpers between the battery and starter to see if the starters good?

You could always take the battery and starter off...take them to you nearest auto parts house and have them tested.

Well the battery was brand new yesterday, so I'm pretty sure it's not the culprit. I'll have to look through the wiring. What is the best way to verify the starter is functioning properly?

Bypass the key switch and solenoid by jumping right to the starter.

runs at 30F but not at 12F...start with an oil change I think! SAE 30 is the spec for >32F but then Kohler says drop to a multi-vis oil of 5W-20 or 5W-30 (can go 10W also but only down to 0F and if you are already 12F in December, skip that stage and go directly to the 5W).

all kidding aside (maybe not), give all your connections a shot of WD40 (key switch, PTO switch and solenoid).

"stiff oil" might be your problem but that starter should still turn it better than what you describe.

So trying the cheapest stuff first. I'd check voltage to the solenoid and then to the starter. Then I'd check grounds (battery to frame is easy enough but then realize that the front bolt of your starter holds a ground wire that attaches to your frame on the right front corner where the "nose" meets the frame).

What good is WD-40 going to do for corroded electrical connections?

If it turns over at all, the problem is not the solenoid or the wiring that activates it...it will either work properly or not. I agree that all of the grounds need to be checked and cleaned if necessary. Before doing too much I would remove the starter and check on the condition of the brushes and commutator. If the brushes are worn and commutator dirty it may be weak. The cables from the battery to solenoid and solenoid to starter can corrode and develop high resistance, causing them to get hot, but I suspect the problem in this case lies within the starter itself. If the starter started smoking, the wiring to it is probably capable of carrying the amount of current it needs.

Did you check to see if your battery cables are clean, polished, tight, and down to good bare metal on both ends?

I worked on a friends 1650 some years back and it did not have a starter/gen
it had a Perm mag newer style starter.
That said, if putting the + jumper wire on the starter terminal gives the same results as described, then take the starter off and dis assy it to look for problems.
Especially checking the brushes AND if the perm. magnets are cracked or have come unglued.
If it spins/starts easily with jumper attached to starter the terminal,
then it is in associated wiring, and you need to trouble shoot that.

maybe I'm wrong but I think WD40 was invented to clean electric connections without tearing them apart (water displacement formula 40 as I recall).

maybe just luck but I've seen it work before, it will remove surface rust, everybody has a can of it, it can be directed to where needed and it doesn't hurt anything if it doesn't work.

sorry I offended you with a cheap/easy attempted solution.

the fact that it turned at 30F but not at 12F...does suggest a weak starter but I think I would try everything else before tearing the starter out and rebuilding it (Kohler brush set is about $60 for that thing...I know all about it since I bit a month or two ago).

You can do what you want with your tractor, but I'd prefer to remove the connector and clean it manually. WD-40 will leave residue that will collect more dirt that will eventually absorb water and start the process all over again.

An aftermarket brush kit is about $10, no more expensive than new battery cables.

A 1650 does not have a S/G; this might be difficult. I'd suspect dirty connections, or the rear end hy/tran making starting difficult.

Thanks drglinski, I've been a little under the weather lately and wasn't paying enough attention. I edited my post.

Take the sparkplug out and see how the motor cranks over then, you know: slow or fast. I know I have a totaly diffrent tractor which is a IH Cub Cadet model 71, but only one time ever did my tractor turn over rather slowely. Turns out I had the mower deck engauaged. Just trying to help.

never had a problem with WD40 but as you say it's my tractor. More interesting is the aftermarket brush kits...I saw them but read (here I think) there are good ones and some not so good ones. amazing that Kohler can get $53+tax if there are acceptable ones for a 1/4 of the price.

I've had great luck with the aftermarket brush kits. I don't recall ever seeing anyone post here about bad aftermarket ones...got any posts to show us?

I replaced the brushes on my old 129's s/g once and the salesman saw me coming!!! He sold me a pair of carbon brushes for the job. Problem with that? Running power through the carbon brushes to use the generator as a starter causes the life of the brushes to shorten drastically!!!

Make sure that if you buy new brushes for a s/g that they have bronze in them. This makes them more resistant to wear under the load of the electricity/duration required to start the engine with.

Not being the brightest bulb in the pack, I bought about 4 or 5 sets of brushes from the same and different dealers before querying the Cub Cadet mechanic. Be careful not to walk in my footsteps, it isn't always the best route. Maybe I'm just a hard learner...Try to learn from my mistakes. Maybe that way it won't be as costly to you as it has been to me.

HAPPY CUBBING, FFGino. ;
____________________

CC100, 109, 127, 149, 169, 1100 Morphing into a 1650, 1650.

Thanks for all the responses guys. The starter in this is just a starter... not a starter/generator. I actually did change from SAE 30 to 10w-30 the first time it wouldn't kick over right and that wasn't the culprit. I'll be going through the wiring tomorrow and take a closer look at the starter as well. Thanks again guys.... hopefully I'll get it running before the next snow fall!

yup...just a starter (your generator is buried in the engine housing). sorry we got off-track (and for the record I don't know how I got to senior member status...I am truly an amateur).

clean your grounds and connections then try again. you might very well be due for starter brushes. Matt says above that the aftermarket kits (4 springs, 4 brushes (2 attached to the positive terminal, the other 2 attached to the cover)) are good but most likely only available online so order now.

The Kohler manual available here is pretty good on the subject and the process is what I would rate "basic"...no rocket science.

When you reach 100 posts you become a senior member. It has nothing to do with your skill level.

Geez, what do you get titled at 2,500? GruppenFuhrer?

:D

Sorry to say but i had the same issue with my starter this year, it would work intermittently, and crank over fine sometimes, but most of the times weak. Especially when cold.

I would remove the starter and hook it up directly to the battery and test its strength. But it really sounds like you need a new set of brushes.'

I found a used starter on ebay ($21) with shipping and replaced it with that, because i couldnt get my starter apart.

Good luck.

How does water displacement equal battery corrosion removal?? It doesn't.

Bad ground contact at frame from the battery will kil a QL electrical system. BTDT..

Is the compression release working? Just curious.

it doesn't...but a shot of WD40 also removes rust/corrosion on contacts and I've seen it work on other than CubCadets and on my CC as a preliminary step (just a shot, not a soaking)...

battery connections no (they are easy enough to clean manually).

but the PTO switch (the ignition routes through there and there are a lot of little pins on that thing), the ignition switch and the brake switch, yes.

interesting to see if anybody chimes in on your battery to frame connection. when you say "kills", you mean it simply doesn't work? that would make sense but I can't see it hurting anything unless it was an intermittent grounding...

the other key though is the starter to nose ground wire which I guess is needed because of the QL rubber ISO mounts...far as I can tell the engine (coil, points, starter) gets no ground without that front cable having clean tight connections (essentially completes the grounding from the battery).

This circuit ONLY allows to the starter solenoid to energize. It has NOTHING to do with a slow roll over.

WD40 is popular and cheap. IMO that is the only positive attributes to the product.

I think it is time to do so something with this starter. (A) Replace it (new or good used) or (B) take it to a Starter Repair Shop for testing and/or rebuild.

fine and dandy (everybody has an opinion on WD40)...cleaning the connections is a quick and cheap attempt to make sure all current is delivered where needed.

the fact that he got the starter hot and smoking...it doesn't take much given what he put it through out of frustration (btdt)...

a starter teardown can be done at home (disconnect the battery and hot terminal at the starter, 2 mounting bolts, 2 long screws on the starter itself) at which time he'll know what the brushes/springs look like. the fact that it worked at 30F but not at 12F would suggest a weak starter (all the fluids are stiff) which might simply be worn brushes (they do wear out).

so say $15 for an aftermarket brush set (Matt says they are just fine), not much to lose there other than time (and granted a bit of a mess...the residue from the old brushes needs to be contained). as long as the starter is out anyway, good time to clean that ground connection to the nose.

If he cooked the windings by getting them hot, all the $15.00 brush kits won't fix that.

it's only $15 Roland...he may or may not have cooked the windings...over cranking is common I think (and yeah that casing gets hot and might smoke a bit but that could be a number of things like residual oils and stuff) but he may still have a functioning starter. I tore mine apart a month or two ago and I can see why Kohler charges what they do (other than for the replacement brushes...that is not fair). They are well built.

$15 for a brush kit is a fraction of what it's going to cost him to replace/repair it...if it works, fine. If not, it's $15 and "experience gained".

Armatures are always way overbuilt, they will withstand 2 x the voltage for many years.
That starter has no field coils, just P magnets.
Like I suggested in my early post, if it don't start properly with a heavy jumper attached directly to the terminal post, remove the starter and investigate it's condition.
Those starters are known to crack the magnets and/or come unglued.
it is really simple to do a disassembly of it.
after all these years, it prolly needs a good internal clean up @ the least.

for the benefit of anybody finding this on google or whatever...there is a sticker on the outboard side that clearly says NOT to strike the starter (guess that's an old trick from the 50's/60's).

the magnets on this starter are glued onto the starter casing (hit it with a hammer and dislodge one of those is the same as buying a new starter).

it's not a big deal to unmount it (2 bolts, one of which holds the heavy ground wire to the nose to complete the ground from the battery to the frame). disconnect the battery first of course just to be safe. with the switch off it shouldn't matter but...

clear off a spot on a table/bench and put down newspaper (learned the hard way there...was doing some woodworking on the same bench and kept getting black streaks). the dust from the old brushes is very fine. pop the 2 long bolts to remove the cap (expect the brushes to pop along with 4 springs). I cleaned mine with rubbing alcohol (magnets on the inside housing also). It's dirty business so don't wear your Sunday best.

Kohler manual (available here) shows how to mount the new brushes including the homemade brush holder. Only thing I can add there is that there is a slight bevel on one side of the brushes...it's in the manual but maybe overlooked...looking at the end-cap as you assemble the brushes, you should be looking at the bevel.

you will need the home-made brush holder (I had a scrap of aluminum J channel that worked just fine after I cut a slot into it to clear the starter shaft).

since I only had to rebuild my starter because it decided to dis-assemble itself, I put (blue) Lok-tite on the threads.

Just to add this you can break the magnets by hitting it as well. Seen that done on 800 starter.:bash2:

FWIW, a magnet can become broken and remain glued to the field housing and function but @ a reduced power output.
A magnet has a N & south pole, as we all know.
But when it is broken it now becomes 2 different magnets,
each having a north & S pole.
This messes with the magnetic pull/push and causes the starter to try to work against itself so to speak.
I happen to have a starter that has a crack in one magnet, about 1/4 of it, and I still use it but it turns over slower and will not start the 10 Hp in colder weather.
It is in my J.D 210 back up tractor. the battery box on them is large enough to allow me to use a full size auto battery offsetting the bad starter.
If this was used in winter. or as my main mower, the magnet or starter would get replaced.

For what it's worth I would have the battery load tested . Just because it's a new battery doesn't mean anything. I don't think the quality control in GT batteries is as good as automotive batteries. Couple years ago I put a brand new NAPA battery in my re powered 682 and still would not start the engine. Thinking there is no way a new battery could be faulty I went thru every wire in the start circuit and cleaned grounds and checked for shorts. Took the battery back to NAPA after all the BS I went through and found out the battery had a cell with a short. Replace battery and vroom vroom. Just my 2 cents Kelly.

yeah...I never understood the warning against striking the starter until I pulled it apart to clean it. back in the old days it was common practice to bang a starter/generator if it wasn't working. I never did on the Cub because of that label they put on there.

The reason is now quite clear (ol'George was very good at explaining the guts of the starter...I wish he would have told me that aftermarket brushes were ok though).

My advice get a heater on it . none of my GT's will start at 12 degrees either.
A lot of things change at that temp. like
Battery CCA's would be 45% of stated AT 70 DEGREE
gas will not evaporate thus aireate near as well
turning torque of the motor multi times what it is at 60 try pulling the rope starter on the push mower
possible icing of the carb venturi
cast iron becomes softer or more drag (piston /ring area) at cold temps
30w oil seems like 90w
likely the valves slow returning because of the thick oil giving low compression

ps that icon fish must be photoshoped

I'm sorry but those three things are nonsense.

And I agree with Matt 100%-- pretty smart kid ha,LoL!
Anyway, Carb icing does occur but only after the engine starts.
and it usually presents itself as a rich mixture, like the choke is on.
That is another reason for a slow gentle warm up.
A cup is filled one drop @ a time,----
add alot of little factors as all have mentioned, and it really gets dicy starting anything @ cold temps, even if everything is spot on.
Heat of any source is a good thing to help with starting, and when it starts, don't rev it up for your own $$$$ good

Alright guys... sorry for the delay. Today I tried connecting the battery directly to the starter.... same result so that ruled out bad wiring/ground between the battery compartment and starter. Next I removed the starter and took it apart. I'm pretty sure she's fried..... based on the look and smell:) The pics are below. I'm assuming this failure in non-repairable and I need to find a new starter? Now the question is did I cause this by waaaay over-doing the starter trying to get it started in cold weather with SAE30 oil in the engine (stupid on my part... I was frustrated and trying to get the driveway clear!) or is something else up? Also, can I just buy any starter for a K341? Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-...b559be&vxp=mtr

Thanks guys!

Pics

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D720/ry%3D480/


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D720/ry%3D480/

I guess this one actually lists the 1650.... are all K341 starters not the same???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-NEW-STAR...6e706d&vxp=mtr

Why does it look like the entire inside of the starter is covered in oil? How do the commutator and brushes look?