Creeper system....
 

My 108 does not have the creeper option. I was told to expect to pay around $250 for a complete system. Just checking if that sounds right. Anyone have one or know where to get one? I found one place on line but wanted to see if there are others.

Is this hard to install? My uncle is a wiz at this stuff but still wanted to get and idea what we are in for.

To get a good idea of what you are in for, check out the installation instructions in the service manual, which should be in the tech library portion of this site.

$250 seems a bit high, I see them go for more like 150-200 max lately.

I have read many times, here and elsewhere, that the Creeper was intended to slow the ground speed for snow blowers and other attachments.

It is evidently a rather weak system and NOT intended for more grunt while plowing, etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong.:bigthink:

I would like to somehow make my 100 have a granny gear in 1st with a STRONG pulling ability. I find first gear to be pretty fast on my 100 for some duties.

Is there another gear or gearset I can buy? Perhaps something aftermarket meant for the pulling crowd?

My ideal setup would be a very slow Granny first gear, then 2nd about the speed that first is now. I never use above 2nd as it is.

I apologize if this is a hi-jack, but I have been shopping for and considering a creeper as well.

Regards, Brad

You already can't put the full power of the engine to the ground in first gear, so why do you think you need more torque?

garnold

Be sure your creeper is one from a wide frame as the handle is bent different on a NF one.

It is not that I feel I need MORE torque, it is that occasionally while working I would like the same full torque at a slower ground speed without worry of breaking something.

I am not pulling stumps mind you, I have a big tractor for that. I would just like to go a little slower while plowing, cultivating, etc.

I do not like to reduce throttle speed on any non-pressurized engine for fear of lack of proper lubrication.

Brad

I wouldn't worry about the strength of the creeper gear. I can remember 40 years ago when I first got a 108, the creeper gear was almost mandatory if you ran a tiller. A tiller is not exactly light duty stuff in hard ground with wheel weights and AG tires.

The tiller is doing all of the work, and the tractor is holding the tiller back. There is little load on the driveline while tilling, or throwing snow, for that matter. As has already been said, the creeper is for reducing ground speed for implements that don't put much load on the driveline. It was not designed to be used as a torque amplifier.

Ever seen the inside of one before? There are several parts in there that aren't particularly beefy.

A creeper or any other reduction gear will increase the torque at the rear wheels (if there is no wheel slippage) and will increase loads on the driveline and the chances that something will break if the tires don't slip. The oil in a splash lube engine will be flying around nearly as much at idle as full throttle. A larger concern would be engine cooling at lower RPMs, but for light loads you could reduce the engine speed somewhat and not harm anything.

I can't imagine why you'd want to go slower than first gear while plowing...1st is pretty slow to begin with, and the plow turns the dirt over much better in 2nd gear.

You can always get a hydro-transmission Cub ;)

OK so from what I'm learning here the creeper does not offer and additional pulling power but is more for slowing the overall speed of the tractor down correct? Well I'm in a tough spot than because I have this terrible sickness that forces me to purchase all the features for just about everything I have HAHAHA If there is a spot for a switch or an option to be added this darn sickness makes me do it!!! Anyone else have this terrible sickness too?

Joking aside I thank you all for the info on this topic. I may actually pass on this option now because it really is not going to do what I wanted. As already stated I apparently cant use all the torque this baby has already without the rear wheels spinning so I guess I'll be fine. Just thought that it might have been a good idea for pulling the hay ride around but it is sounding like its not.

I don't want to change the idea of this thread so can someone direct me to the correct place to learn more about the PTO on my 108. I was told that on the 108 this option is for the rear of the tractor and not for the mower? What would I use it for if not the mower?

Do you have any pics of your rear PTO?

No, kind of wanted to learn more about this here.

I have some factory service manuals here from Kohler, Briggs and Tecumseh that would disagree with your statement about low rpm oiling. Non-pressurized motors are not designed for extended periods of idling or low rpm use under load. They will die a slow death from lack of proper upper end lubing.

I agree with you about the temperature being an issue. That is why I installed a low amp draw fan (intended for boat bilge areas) and a temperature gauge on my 100. It gets over 100 here in the summer sometimes so every air cooled engine needs help.

Yes I realize that when soil has the proper moisture content that plowing in second gear can be done. I use my garden tractors a lot with a box blade to maintain a long dirt and gravel driveway. First gear at near full throttle is WAY too fast for this on a 100. You will bend or break something.

According to factory manuals the ground speed on my 100 (and my 102 for that matter) is 2.3 mph in first gear.

That is too fast for several of my attachments: Box Blade, Ripper, Middle Buster and my pull behind Tiller (a tow behind with it's own engine). It is fine for my Cultivator, Sweeper, Disc and Section Harrows.

I have two "off topic" garden tractors that came from the factory with granny first gears with minimum speeds of .3 mph and .6 mph respectively.

Thousands of these models of "off topic" tractors were built and are still in use so I am clearly not in the minority for thinking that granny gears are useful. It is a shame that I have to use something that isn't yellow and white to get what I need.

I know I could use a Hydro. I also own a 107, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as my 100.

Brad

That's what I used to think too...there's an engineer on another one of the Cub Cadet forums that used to work at Tecumseh, I think, and he explained that they had put windows in an engine block on a splash-lube engine. The oil was getting flung everywhere regardless of engine speed.

Show me where in the K-series owner's manual there are any cautions about lack of lubrication at idle.

I also never said to run it under load at idle...not less than half throttle would be fine for short periods.

I think you're overly concerned about breaking something. I've used a grader blade in first gear on a hard, dry gravel driveway with no issues (on a tractor with nearly twice the horsepower of your 100, too), plowed a rock-hard no-till field in second gear with several different tractors, and done many other things like that with no issues. The key to avoiding damage is to not have so much weight that the wheels can't lose traction. If the wheels can slip when the load suddenly increases, this will protect the tractor from damage.

Maybe if I explained my actual need I could better get the direction I need. This 108 is more of a family member and I plan to use it strictly for fun. Each year we have a Halloween party and next year I want to have a hay ride featuring my 108 :) This guy is going to need to pull some kids around the property in a nice trailer. I just thought the creeper would be a good idea. I do also plan to plow snow with it at some point but that is a few years out. This is all about the memories folks and having my daughter's remember their goofy dad pulling them around in his tractor each year.

I agree with Matt,(pretty smart for a "kid") Ha,LOL!:ThumbsUp: it has always been my feeling that the greater amount of damage/wear occurs @ start up when not only is the oil cold, but there is little lube if any, left on surfaces like the piston/wall.
Just pull a dipstick on a cold engine and picture the "honey" trying to splash in areas that need to be lubed.
It is a wonder engines last as long as they do.
I have heard many times where folks start an engine up cold, and rev it.
---To me, that is like dragging your arm in gravel with something heavy sitting on it,
---not a pretty picture Ha,LOL!

Just a few things for the totally uniniated to a creeper gear. I have a creeper in my 102. A creeper will give you a 6 speed tractor. With the tractor in low creeper you will have three speeds although you cannot change gears with the creeper in low you must switch to high and change gears and then back to low. First gear low is very very slow while third gear low is slightly less ground speed than high 1st gear. About the only time I actually need or use the creeper is when I am blowing snow and then I am shifting into high to back up. My only troubles with the creeper gear are the roll pin in the drive shaft has sheared off and the roll pin that connects the lever inside the creeper has come out a couple times. I do own an off brand tractor that has a granny gear but seldom use it as it is my wood hauler and occasional mower.

Not sure where you heard that, but it's wrong.

Matt,

Your replies are blunt and argumentative.

I thought this forum was to encourage people to buy, restore, love and use Cub Cadets.

Look at the number of folks in this thread with less than 100 posts.

Do you think you are making them (us) feel welcome by your confrontational replies?

I want my Cub to go slower in first gear. All you have done is tell me why I really don't want that and I don't know how to use my equipment.

Thanks for the welcome.

In my experience with using the Cub tiller, you're right the tiller does the work of pushing the the tractor. It also yanks the tractor back and forth when the ground is hard. That snatchin'/grabbin' is a lot harder on the driveline than a steady, hard pull. The jerking is how you break things. If the creeper gear has wear problems, I'm not aware of it.

Yes, I've seen the inside of several. I own two of them. Never had any problem except breaking the pin in the driveshaft coupling.

Mike,

Since you have some experience with creepers, do they make a weak spot on the driveline if they are NOT engaged?

I may not be making myself clear......

I have ready many places that the creepers will break if you use them in a high torque application like pulling a heavy load up a hill with the Creeper in the LOW side.

My question is, if the Creeper is NOT engaged and you are pulling something heavy up the hill is it STILL a weak spot?

I am a little unsure if the power goes through the creeper even in the HIGH setting.:bigthink:

I hope that makes a little sense.

Regards, Brad

Yes, it does...there's a very good cross-section in the service manual that'll help you understand how it works.

"Weak spot" is a relative term, isn't it?

The first tractor I had a creeper gear in was a 108. It was near new and I had transposed a14 hp QL engine into it. I used to drag logs, pull cars and one time I even tied it off to a Kubota diesel tractor on pavement to see which tractor could pull the other backwards (I lost). I didn't need the creeper for more power, just used it to relieve strain on the clutch. Never seemed to hurt a thing and I still have the gear in one piece almost 40 years later. As I mentioned before, I did shear a driveshaft pin or two. Maybe that is the actual "weak point" in that driveline?

That's not to say that your intended use won't cause problems. I have no idea, only my past experience. Until I read this thread, I'd never heard of the creeper gear being a "weak spot" in a Cub driveline.

Also, I don't agree with the idea that running your Kohler engine slow pulling a moderate load will cause it to overheat as long as the engine isn't lugging.

Looks like you already have the answer to your situation. You can do one of these four things:

Use your Cub "as is" and modulate the throttle for your desired ground speed.

Install a creeper gear in your Cub and run the engine as fast as you think is necessary and select the appropriate gear.

Use your 107 and don't have as much fun.

Use your off brands that are already geared for what you want to do.

Whatever you do, don't pull a trailer that is heavier than you can safely stop it. With a Cub 100, I wouldn't think that would be much weight and keeping that thought in mind, I don't think that same weight would hurt a creeper gear. Your 100 has internal brakes and if you get one rear wheel light, you can lose all braking action instantly.

My advice is worth exactly what it cost you. :ThumbsUp:

It's a strength issue, not a wear issue. The tiller is much easier on the driveline than you'd imagine. Think about it...nearly all of the engine's power is going to the tiller. Very little is going to the wheels, particularly if the tiller is trying to move the tractor forward. Yes, the tiller is moving the tractor around, but not with anywhere near as much force as, for instance, pulling a moldboard plow and hooking a piece of trash, lugging down or stalling the engine. THAT is what's hard on the driveline.

In case it wasn't made clear earlier in the thread, the creeper still connects the engine to the transmission regardless of whether the creeper is in high or low, so the weak point is there when the creeper is in high, as well.

I see you live in Kansas. You got any experience with southern Indiana red clay.:biggrin2:

Like I said, the jerking back and forth can tear up anything. A dead pull, not so much.

A '39 Ford three speed transmission would take 1000 sustained horsepower but and 85 horsepower flathead engine could tear one all to pieces by jerking on it.

I'd agree the creeper is not built as heavy as the trans/rear end. I'd also think that IH would not design something to put in these tractors (creeper) that would break. If you're gonna' use some kind of hot rod clutch, don't know. Anything could happen.

The only thing I ever had break was the driveshaft pins. To me, that is the weak point.

I agree with Matt the creeper it self is the weak point. Lots of parts to break inside and trying to locate them isn't cheap or easy. With that being said it's your stuff use how you want to use it.



There's no need in :BB&YS: or :beatdeadhorse: :TwoCents:

You haven't been around here long enough to know that I'm not from Kansas...I have never pulled a plow in the ground here, or Indiana. I have been to several plow days in rock-hard no-till fields in Illinois...the fields are full of hard spots. You'll be plowing along and all of the sudden you'll come to a halt so fast you nearly get thrown over the hood, and the engine gets lugged down. Those situations are why I don't have a creeper in my 'plow' tractor. People would occasionally break a lot more than driveshaft pins.

You'd be surprised...getting jerked to a halt from WOT in 2nd gear by a plow getting stuck is a lot harder on a tractor than having the tiller push it around. A dead pull will break things if the tires still have traction. If I follow your logic, the pullers would never break anything. You and I both know that they do.

If the 1000 hp engine can put that amount of power to the ground through the transmission, it would break it too.

The answer here is very simple: if used for what it was designed for (reduction of ground speed for tillers and snowthrowers) it is reliable because the very little of the engine's power is going through the transmission while either of those implements are being used. Put it in a tractor where the engine's full power is transmitted through the rear wheels, and that's another story.

You bring up an excellent point though...the clutch spring gives the input shaft bearing on the creeper a hard life. Using a stronger spring would shorten the life even more, which is another reason why my plow tractor does not have a creeper- the 800 lb/in spring would make me go through bearings like crazy.

Mike,

Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply.

Real experience is worth a LOT these days. It seems much mis-information gets circulated and repeated. Pretty soon it is accepted as gospel.

Many thanks, Brad

Your profile says you are from Kansas.

The original poster asked what his options were to pull a wagon, not be under full power, max driveline load. I tried to supply him with some of my real world experience. He said nothing about pulling a plow. Or any other ground engagement device.

I've had my creeper gears in hard spots. Never a problem. I just tried to relay that to the original poster instead of getting all wound up in "weak spots" and other such rhetoric about a Cub driveline.

You input to the original poster I don't believe was helpful at all 'cause he's not pulling a plow. Just to try and see if there's any validity to what you say about "weak spots", I did a casual search here and tried to find someone who had a creeper gear fail. I didn't find any but I only checked several pages of search.

In any case, either you just like to argue or this forum is like a lot of the rest of them. My way or the highway. You (and someone else) on the other hand wanted to take it to a different level for what reason, I have no idea.

If you have credible testimony of creeper gears failing pulling wagons, please direct me to the appropriate thread!

Ok guys time to drop it. Any more and I'll close the thread.

Back on topic.... The creeper is sometimes a pain to install. You will have to remove the driveshaft and cut it. I am dreading and putting off installing mine because it is a pain. Lol :bash2: :beerchug:

My profile says I live in Kansas. It makes no mention of where I am from.

The OP did not initially state what he was wanting to do with his tractor. Some blanket generalizations were made that may or may not apply. Keep in mind that this thread is not just for the benefit of the OP, but also future people who may read it who may or may not have the same intent as the OP. As far as pulling a wagon full of kids, that's a pretty light load and I doubt that would cause an issue. I don't like to argue. It's just that sometimes this 'tunnel vision' advice gets posted that does not apply universally, and someone later on who doesn't know better might read the information in this thread and make an expensive mistake because they didn't know all the pertinent information. I'd hate to see someone that wanted to pull stumps or something like that stumble across this thread, drop $250 on a creeper, and then break something in it trying to pull a stump with a heavily-weighted tractor. I have wasted time and money due to bad advice from people that didn't have the complete picture, and I'd hate seeing that happen to someone else.

I have been around these tractors for about 10 years now...there are other forums that have existed long before this one came about. I can't provide specific examples, but problems with creepers used for things other than their intended purpose have been discussed at length elsewhere.