1450 overhaul - now wont Start
 

Hey guys i just did an overhaul on my 1450. repainted, new decals (which i make having a large sign and graphics shop), rebuilt carb, new points, new solenoid, new battery, new muffler, new lights, and a few other things i cant think of now.

Well after a long time tracing a short i found one of the connections to the electric PTO was the culprit! took me a week to find it because it was intermittent. Anyways now she cranks over great, i have spark but cant get her running more than a couple seconds. now i cant even get that. I took the carb off again and everything looks good.

Before i fixed the loose wire on the PTO i had it running by jumping the solenoid, now i cant get her running.

Does the adjustments on the carb make that much difference? Any help is greatly appreciated.

here is a before and after pic

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...IMG_2710-1.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...2E62FEC8F5.jpg

Just a couple of quick question to think over. Is it getting fuel? Did you set the timing when you replaced the points? The carb adjustments can be pretty critical. When you rebuilt the carb, did you soak the carb in cleaner for a day or so then blow it out with air real good. It's a good possibility you may have some dirt in the carb that is not allowing a good flow.

Here is a list of links also for your 1450. The Kohler manual is listed and tells how to set the carb for initial start and then how to fine tune it.

Quiet Line Links:


Download and print all the manuals;

Carb Rebuilding: http://mgonitzke.net16.net/tools/carb_rebuild.pdf

ISO mount and snubber: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7

Hydro Filters: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12

Ignition Circuit: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27

Ignition Coil: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11

Spark Plug Chart: Use Autolite: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4638

Static Timing for new points: http://mgonitzke.net16.net/tools/static_timing.pdf

Chassis Service Manual: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4644

Kohler Service Manual: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4646

1650 Operators Manual: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4670

PTO adjustment: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30

Wiring Diagrams: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22

Cradle Mod: http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4630

I always start with the simple solutions first....i'm sure you checked it, but do you have the fuel shut off valve open on the tank and is it working properly?
I've forgotten to open it a few times and wondered why my nice running 1450 wouldn't stay running.

metalrain

spark, gas , compression , timing
 

Getting Spark? (lay plug on the head and look and listen while you crank)

Getting Gas? (pull plug and look at it, and smell it). Carb adjustments (mixture adjustments) are not critical to starting. If the float is not allowing gas to fill the bowl, THAT could be a problem)

Compression (unless you forgot to install the piston, we'll assume yes!)

Timing - Look here if you have all of the rest....


You'll get it!
John (back to work!)

PS: What happens if you shoot a little gas into the carb throat and then crank...does it fire or no?

If you had it running its probably not a compression or ignition issue. Make sure it is getting gas and that the carb is set right. Try 2 1/8 turns on the main jet and 1 3/4 on the idle.

Yeah carbs can be really picky, with the smallest amount of dirt causing a whole lot of problems. I'd start with checking for that.

Thanks guys for all your help.

I did not have my multimeter so i just did a eyeball adjustment with a digital micrometer and got her to run. She idles well but stalls as soon as i give it any throttle. I tried adjusting the points 10 times with no better results. I cant find the "S" and "T" Matt talks about in his timing pdf.

I also found another issue while letting it run, my hydro lift will not move. It seems like the piston it controls is frozen. I checked the fluid level and it looks to be full and oil looks clean? I tried pushing the piston with a screwdriver.

Here is a pic of the points position and the piston that seems frozen.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...CC352A992B.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...CC2E8B5F10.jpg

:Welcome2:

Double check your grounds as well. The timing marks can have some light rust on them. Did you rebuild the engine or new points?

i only put in new points. Now i am real worried that the hydraulic lift will not work too.

The hyd is not hard to fix, if the spool is stuck, shoot penatrating oil on it, give it some time to work, and tap the end gently while holding tension on the actuating lever, just move it a little @ a time and don't get crazy with the hammer you just want to jar it loose. usually they break free easily unless stuck for years.
if all that fails, then you will have to pull the block off and get more agressive getting it to move.

Piggy Back
 

JBrewer posted, "PS: What happens if you shoot a little gas into the carb throat and then crank...does it fire or no?"

Matt Gonitzke posted: "If you had it running its probably not a compression or ignition issue. Make sure it is getting gas and that the carb is set right. Try 2 1/8 turns on the main jet and 1 3/4 on the idle."

I'll piggy-back on what JBrewer and Matt posted; if you had it running, what could have changed?

When fixing starting problems, one must focus on the essential fundamentals:

1. Compression
2. Fire
3. Fuel

The easiest way to eliminate or isolate ignition problems is to feed fuel directly into the carburetor, using either some gasoline, starter fluid, or carb cleaner (I use a short squirt of starter fluid). If it starts "on the juice" then the problem is fuel; if it doesn't start, there is an issue with the ignition.

Given your situation, if it doesn't respond to the starter fluid, I would again follow JBrewer's advice and "lay plug on the head and look and listen while you crank." If you can see spark, then (and only then) you know that the ignition system is working and the problem is the timing. But for the engine not to even start, when you've got a spark and have given it fuel, there would have to be a serious problem with the timing, I would think.

If you don't see a spark with the plug on the head, then you know to start investigating the ignition switch, grounds, condenser, coils, etc.

The main thing is to not let the fact that the engine is not starting throw you into a panic. Think carefully, logically, and completely what could cause the symptoms you're see, which ONE THING makes the most sense to try first, what you expect to see as a result, and try it. After you see the results, and account for them, you can move on to the next item on the list.

If all else fails, walk away from it; do something else, sleep on it and rising to a new day everything will become clear.

Based on your latest reply it sounds like you may not have it timed anywhere near correct, which would cause it to start hard and not have any power. Take off the flywheel shroud and find the marks, clean, and mark them so you can see them. They are there. Then find your multimeter and make sure the timing is correct before you do anything else.

After dicking with the points for a while, i tried Matts Timing Method. My multimeter is digital and i could not tell when it was at zero ohms and infinite ohms. Attached is a pic of my multimeter (and what setting i had it on). i did find the notches on the flywheel. and tried my best to set the points. I set the points at .016, .020, .013 and a bunch of others. I could get it to run at .016 but it would only idle. then i changed it again and it wouldnt start at all.

This whole time i was cranking the motor over and thought i killed battery, went and bought a new one and then found that my starter wasnt cranking well (even with a 200amp jump start charger she wasnt cranking over well). so we took starter off and couldnt get it to spin well at all. so now i am taking that apart. i had a huge mouse nest in my flywheel and think there was mouse piss all over the brushes.

I cant believe how expensive starters are, is there anywhere to get them for less money?

Getting real frustrated, any help would be apprecitated. Need to get her going for winter snow plowing.

Here is a pic of the multimeter. Is there another way to time the motor, i am having a real hard time getting it timed.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...45B05888D0.jpg

It really doesn't make much of a difference which of the 'ohms' ranges you have it set on. The highest one would probably make the most sense. Put it on any ohms setting and touch the leads together. That is zero resistance (or near zero...most digital meters have internal resistance that shows up in the measurement and can't be adjusted out) and whatever the screen shows when the leads are not touching is open. It's very simple. Try again now that you know how to read the meter.

Daddy...Kohler starters are quite expensive ain't they? I recently found that just the Kohler brush kit is around $60 (I bit...figured the old brushes lasted 20+ years)! but I doubt a mouse could get at them. they would be on the end of the starter housing facing the front of the tractor and a mouse would have to travel through the entire starter.

sounds like you have pulled the starter and took it to the bench. when you say not spinning well (don't think you needed 200a for that...10a works) I'd suspect brushes but perhaps the housing magnets are faulty.

See what your 4 brushes and springs look like. The Kohler manual available here has a very good section on placement of the positives and grounds and also describes how to make a brush holding tool to get everything back together. If the magnets are still intact, I used Walmart rubbing alcohol to clean them and the internal guts (don't wear your Sunday church clothes for that operation).

timing...I never have found the timing marks on my K341 and I simply set the points at .020 at their widest opening (wire gauge, not flat). A real pain given where they are and a rather primitive mounting/adjustment method that is like playing "whack a mole" but it works.

the fact that it starts and idles but dies when under load...I've read here that the vibration can cause problems with a nicked ground wire from the points to the coil. But I'd suspect fuel related. Can you keep it running by manually goofing with the governor?

Kohlers don't spin over like a car...they turn over slowly. If it started before it should be good to go now. Don't change too much stuff at once or you're REALLY going to get frustrated.

The points reading should be just the same as touching the leads together, and then not If that results in a change of readings, you're using the meter correctly. IF there is actually no change, then you've got a wire shorted to ground, or perhaps a shorted condenser.

Can you SEE the points opening when you turn the motor by hand?

John

That meter has a continuity function that will beep when there is continuity. That comes in handy so you don't have to look at the meter and just listen for the beep.

on the bench they spin like a top (positive to the terminal, negative to the mounting bracket)! mounted in the machine you are correct in that they chug. I think he said he had it on the bench and it wasn't doing so good. all that aside, you are also correct in that it had enough to start the engine so while maybe weak, that isn't his primary problem.

I'm only an amateur here but the fact that it dies under load suggests a carb and/or governor issue. I don't think a .01 or two or three on the point setting is going to be critical in keeping it running (may run "ugly" but it will run).

Before embarking on that carb though, I would use a VOM on the coil to see if there isn't something going on when load is applied. Ideal situation would be a bad ground somewhere that only shows when the throttle is opened...doesn't take much time to correct).

Hey guys thanks for all your help. i have the brushes out of the starter and they are being cleaned up. Hopefully this does the trick.

So i get this straight, at this point if i get it running again (really it only idles) the rest should be adjustments of the carb?

Is my problem the carb now?

Here is a pic of a small bare spot in my ground to the block, could this be my problem?

Should i change the condenser? Does that make a big difference?

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F4F4BAB364.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F4F170E000.jpg

I just took my carb off again and found that the needle in the main jet is damaged a little (the point of the needle is bent a little)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...886910E84C.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...8866445D34.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...886C064378.jpg

Bare spot on the ground wire is not a problem, the needle for the carb on the other hand could be. Wouldn’t hurt to clean all the electrical connections also.

You should be able to fix that needle. If your using the same grounding location it should be fine but it doesn't hurt to ensure your getting good ground. BTDT:bash2:

condencer
 

Hi, you might want to change the condencer. I had one that would only idle,tried a lot off things first then changed the condencer and that fixed it. Mike

0.010" off, and the engine will probably not even start.

Daddysignman, verify that the timing is correct before you go any further screwing around with the carb, or you may drive yourself insane. Based on what you posted earlier it's very likely the timing is off.

sorry...I meant .001, not .01 (i.e. .02 vs. .019 should not matter in getting it running).

There's a whole lot of variables at play here now. Next time it would be good not to fix things until you know what's broken.

When it cranks again, determine if you have spark.

Determine if its getting gas.

THEN if it's needed it'll be good to mess with the timing

With everything changing it gets MUCH more complicated to diagnose.
...but don't worry, It'll start again....

John

you are 110% correct...how many of us have spent $$$ chasing ghosts only to find out the fix was a dollar or two (e.g. I have a box with coils, condensors, point sets, etc.) that I bought trying to get something running.

the fact that he has cleaned up the starter, I'd hit it on the bench with a batt charger to make sure it spins freely. then without power, I'd make sure the worm drive starter gear moves in and out freely. then re-mount the starter (make sure the ground contact behind the front bolt is shiny).

I think I would then move to the points and make sure they are close to spec (I think .020 at it's max is what Kohler says).

The fact that he could get it to start and idle still points me to the carb (that main jet needle looks like somebody seated it too far...those things are fragile).

Well after a long fight my 1450 is put back together and running good. I had my buddy tell me my carb was shot and I needed a new one. He said the throttle shaft was shot! So I went to Ace and got the brass thrust bearing and two new screws and schooled this 30 year veteran of tractor repair. He owns the largest John Deere dealership in CT!

He was amazed that fixed it!

So I brought it home and put her back together.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...80AD07DC5A.jpg

I machined a couple of polyphenelic plastic skid plates for the snow thrower so I don't scratch my new driveway.

I power washed and painted the QA42A the other night and threw it on. I tried using the belt off the 582 but it doesn't fit. Anybody know which size belt I need off the top of their head?

Here's a few more shots. Tomorrow I will make the new graphics and get them installed!

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...80A768F54E.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...80A498683F.jpg

Congratulations on the carb work! Buy your buddy a beer! lol! :beerchug:

Thanks for sharing your pain! Nice looking cub!

That's awesome news!

That's fantastic!

Congratulations ! That's great news......

Glad you re-built it. And you saved how much? :biggrin2:

The bushings were $0.80 each and the screws were $0.20 each. So it cost me $1.20 to fix my carb!

They wanted $325 for a Kohler carb new!

I am making the new decals this morning to replace my old ones. If anybody would like a set for theirs i will have the file in the computer and can output them for $25.00 + shipping for a set for anyone on this site because i appreciate all the help and effort you all have put into this forum and it is top notch. The knowledge and expertise is worth more than anything. Thanks for all the help and i hope this site continues to do well.

Again if anyone needs any decals or graphics i have one of the largest vinyl shops in the state and i also have a 5'x10' CNC machine and can cut any custom aluminum, plastic, acrylic, wood shapes you could ever need. i will heavily discount any job done through this site.

Im not selling myself here, i am just letting you know and i truly only want to help any of you if needed. I have created cool decals for other forums i am in and the guys usually like them and its a good way to raise money for the site. so let me know. I can design somehting

So I got the decals set-up, printed and installed. What a difference they make! These decals will never fade and I put a chemical resistant clear overlaminate on them so gas or oil will not damage them.


http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F98FBAC917.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F989E7CB6A.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F98CDB2810.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...F986AD11DF.jpg

Beautiful tractor! Nice decals! :beerchug:

Your 1450 looks awesome! I also like the decals!

What Allen said!:beerchug:

POTW Candidate!!!

Oh yeah!:beerchug: