ELECTRIC PTO's NOT Lasting on 1500 series
 

What gives? Three pto's in 5 years? How can I increase the longevity?

Are you buying after market or from Cub? When you engage the PTO do you have the engine at mid to lower idle or wide open? Having the engine at wide open when engaging the PTO is very hard on the PTO.

This last pto had 50 hrs on it

I'll pass that info concearning the lower engagement rpm along to my father. [his machine] As far as OEM pto, the first was replaced by an authorized service center/ dealer under factory warranty. I'm guessing it's under engineered, and also should be made adjustable like the John Deer.

We have a dealer, aways away, who will not stock the Cubs who utilize the electric power take off.

Thanks for the information

Well the aftermarket thing isn't really a factor here. The difference between a rotary PTO and a cub PTO besides the price, is that the cub one is zink coated.

Now I don't know what engine you have on the unit, but if you think about the avg home owner Z turn, when both handles are in reverse, the PTO shuts off. Then when you engage it again, it comes back on. Most riding mowers and even commercial Z turns have the same clutches. Most times if you turn on a a 50 or 60 inch deck at low rpm's, it will shock break the belt. So I'd like to see where in any Warner manual or service bulletin where it says not to engage at full rpm.s.

I know that some years back termite had a problem with the grounds in their tractors. This in turn would warp the cranks on the engines by welding them to the bearings.

There is only a few companies that make the clutches, look on the back of them whether it comes in a cub box or in a Warner box. The pump I just posted about, threw cub was over $900 retail. Through Hydro Gear, same pump, same spec number, just over $500.

You've got something else wrong other than the clutch, the clutch is the end result of the problem.

Vince,

This is a rear drive mower. Not a zero turn. The PTO I am refering to ONLY drives the mower deck.

Thank you for your input. Every little bit helps.

john

John

Doesn't matter. I was using the fact that a z turn mowers PTO will turn on and off much more than yours will, at high rpm's. So DX3's thinking of low rpm's doesn't seem to make sense to me. If it was going to hurt a PTO to turn it on and off at high speed, they would have designed the unit different. I think you have some type of ground problem. But cant say for sure. I've used after market PTO's with no problems on mowers for years here at the house. At the shop we just use Cub and Warner.

Just thought of another thing. Think about the AC clutch on your car. It inguages and disenguared million times more than your PTO dose. Its not hard on it, and its the same thing. All a pto is is an electal magnet and a coil like on the side of your fly wheel or on the frame if you own an old car. If the coil internally breaks down then you wont have enough amps to pull the plates of the pto in. Also if the batt isnt fully charged that wll cause your pto not to work.

If you have a briggs eng and it has a small charging system, lets say 2 to 4 amps unregulated, it will take for ever for the unit to charge a batt. If its a 15 amp system it will be much faster.

So when your using the pto and its drawing lets say 22 amps, your charging system is just trying to keep the pto enguaged, and if your batt is week then the batt wont get charged.

So this said what exactly is failing on the pto? The coil the enguagement plates or bearring? Its not commen to have a lot of failures on a pto.

Think of all the old QLS that we pull out of the weeds. We get them running and the pto is still working. Ill bet the ptos on them have been enguaged more at high speed than yours has in its whole life. Those types and still today on some AYP units they still use an adjustable clutch. Also on some Kawasaki and Kohlers on comercial z turns.

I see a theme happening below. These are copied directly from the owner's manuals of cub tractors.

Copied directly from my 1711 owner's manual:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...psd9660275.jpg

Copied from my 782 and 982 owner's manual:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...psc667bffa.jpg

ANd what part of "BREAK IN dont you understand :bigthink:

So I guess you use the break in oil all season long too :bigthink:

To break in the PTO you turn it on and off ten to fifteen time with no load.
After that, during normal use you engage the PTO at half throttle. What part of comprehension do you not understand?

I am going to lean towards a grounding issue also. Most all the electrical connectors on these newer machines are not to much better than pure crap. I have rewired 3 different machines this year due to electrical connector failures. As far as PTO's go the original poster never told what the failures were. Are they because of slippage or is the coils smoking. Lets grow up and find out what the real issues are before we start slamming peoples comprehension abilities. Just saying

Well Kelly is right the man needs to get to the bottom of this problem

Admin edit to remove Off topic banter

Let's take a quick look at who initiated the comprehension issue Kelly :bigthink: See above remark and jab.

I fit my big boy pants just fine. I am simply trying to show with documentation that Cub suggests low RPM engagement of the electric PTO compared to what Vinnie believes.
Now I do not have a 1500 manual to go by. If it says the opposite then, the whole issue is pointless about the RPM's, but leaves that fact that the OP has a pretty serious issue obviously.
I personally prefer to keep my equipment running as long as possible without having to do a lot of replacement of parts, so I have always followed the advice of what the manual says to anything I run instead of being Cavalier about it and also will implement any mods to a unit if proven to help give longevity to the tractor, engine, or implements. Just Saying...

The pto failures i have seen are
1. put on to tight= bearings get hot
2. dirt and crankcase oil= heat, and can't fully engage
3. power wires, need to be loose, the clutch moves a little bit
4. low voltage
5. bad switches, people think that button is a punching bag:bash:
6. bad grounding, cub cadet had a recall on the "tanks"
7. belts, if it calls for a 73 3/8 belt, it dont mean go to abc auto and get one that "will work", tight belts put strain on everything
7.1 Deck, make sure its clean, and EVERYTHING moves like it should. low end cub decks are kind of a crappy design
Thats just off the top of my little brain

Heres one Im working on off a 2000 series. This has a bearing failure on it. Notice how thick the plates are. Youll see how big the magnet is too.

Now this is the one Ill bet DX3 is talking about. Notice the adjustment holes to gap the pto. Some of the AYP use this style

I tryed to up load the manual for the first style but it says its too big.

This machine is a 1500 series lawn tractor. There is no mecanical adjustment on this pto, nor is there ANY reference to a break in period for the pto. the pto would suddenly disengage while mowing [not a belt slippage issue] I directly connected battery to pto... 12.5v @ pto. pto engaged but i could turn by hand with effort, so isprayed carb cleaner on assembly,and it worked for a while. 10 more minutes. which leads me to believe the dogs might be wearing out, or magnnetic field weakening. You may be onto something in regards to getting a new battery...might be a current issue. I am an electrical technician. Coil showed resistance, but don't know if breaking down under prolonged usage. Thanks guys

no reference to pto break in or special care in1500 manual.

John

Have you load tested the batt? Youll be surprised just because the batt shows 12.5, dosnt mean it dosnt have a bad cell. If you cant get it load tested then try this.

Put your meter on the batt and have someone turn the unit over. Watch and see how low the voltage drops. If the batt is good, then it shouldnt drop below 9 volts.

i might stop over and perform your load test as indicated

Heres the stens PTO I got today. From our shop its like 280 I got this one from Stens shipped to the house for 140. Everything is the same except one thing, the coating on the housing isnt zink plated. And look who makes it for Stens, the same company that makes them for cub.

Your boss would not like you telling people you pay $140, and retail it for $280 + labor. pretty sure stens only sells to someone with a tax ID #, also. $140 profit pays the shop bills, wages and etc. We all have to eat too.

I have been purchasing from stens for years, no tax # but do use a biz name.:biggrin2:

Vince didn't say he got that from his shop. He said he had it shipped to his house. I bet he ordered it online somewhere and got it for less than he could get it through MTD.

AJ

Edited:
Here is what Vince is talking about. I have no clue if this is the clutch the op needs, but Partstree has this for $362.03 and the aftermarket one is $159.58. Both made by Warner.
http://www.psep.biz/store/mtd_electric_pto_clutch.htm

o.k. I'll stop here, stens will not sell to "joe", small engine shops are not money makers. small engine shops will be something of the past..I.E. weed eaters $59-159 new, if it works for 2-5 years,you did well.then the garbage. people buy the low end mowers for $1000-2000, and if they have to have to spend $500 to have it fixed, they buy new. If you have a older car for a work car that needs to be fixed for $500 , you fix it, seems cheep.
any one that whats to know about the small engine repair business, PM me

To be clear I called rich patton for a used one and he told me about this guy. Got it on epay. It was cheiper than what we could get it for. And if we would have gotten it for a customer we would have charged just a bit over for our time to look it up and epay fees ect.

Ive put this same clutch on mowers years ago and they still come threw the shop every year for spring time service just fine. Most time its the bearrings that go bad not the coil.

pto clutch search mod 1711
 

kept blowing fuses finally took a jumper with a 15 amp fuse in line and connected it directly from the battery to the terminal that comees out directly from the clutch ,blew the fuse . no good? armature seems bound up. fixable? how about a new rotor and armature? or replace the whole assembly? just bought this model 1711 [782]and the previous owner stated he just replaced it last year i believe him .
its a warner elect 5209-101-061
any comments or advice would be appreciated.
stardog
newbie to the forum

The PTO that DX3 posted is I believe the one on your 782. I know some guys have taken them apart and replaced the bearing. If the field coil is bad, call rich, chris or ray for a good used one or a new one.

pto 782
 

vince thanks how would i get in touch with rich ,chris ,or ray ?

:Welcome2:

Rich is Patton Acres banner
Chris is Cub Classics banner

Both banners are at the top of every page. It's best to call or email them as they have lots more parts then their web sites list.

pto 1711
 

thx have allready sent emails to patton acres and cub classics
greg

Look at the sponsers, Rich is Patton Acres, I use him alot for used parts here in the shop

Chris is up top to