First Cub Cadets
 

I'm new to this website and I thought I'd share with you guys my new work/play toys. I responded to a craigslist ad the other day for a Cub Cadet "Original" and while I was there I picked up a '67 124 for $50 bringing the combined grand total to $200. The Original has no exhaust pipe or carb. and has been plugged off and the 124 doesn't have the factory hood and it doesn't run. I was told it ran last year. I'm going to get the 124 running first since I plan on actually using this one ASAP and leaving it unrestored while the "Original" will not be kept original. A full resto is planned.
I've been looking for an "Original" Cub Cadet because my father owned an International Harvester dealership back in the day and I use to go to his garage at the dealership when I was a kid and ride around on the old Cubs. It's been many moons since I've been around old Cub Cadets and I would like to get some info on what to check on the 124 to get it up and running. I pulled the plug and cleaned it and set the propper gap. I also sanded the ignition points and checked for spark. It has spark but will not fire. I've tried starting fluid and only twice did it make any sound like it was trying to fire. Mostly it just cranked and cranked with no reaction. When I had the plug removed and touching the block for spark check, the spark was strong most of the time but every once and a while it would be weak. Any idea what my problem is?

Congrats on the pickups!
and

:Welcome2:

Looks like you got an awesome deal Welcome to OCC! Not much of an engine expert so I'll leave your question to those guys.

yes congrats on the pickups and:Welcome2:

:Welcome2:

Awesome scores! Have you checked the timing on the 124? Coil or condenser could be bad as well. Sometimes when they sit for a while the gas goes bad or eats the rubber and it plugs the carb up.

I'm finishing up on 2 Original restores. I'm looking forward to seeing yours when you get started.:beerchug:

Big Bear Chase Me!!

:IH Logo::Welcome2::IH Logo:
Great buy on the Cubs.

:Welcome2: Great scores on your cubs.

I haven't checked the timing yet seeing as how I haven't got it running yet. Do you guys think it could still be the coil or condenser even though it is getting spark? I also noticed something about the Kohler K301 that might be another problem. I haven't done a real compression test on it yet but I think it may need a rebuild. When turning the flywheel over by hand there is almost no resistance from inside the engine leading me to believe the rings are worn out. Even if the rings are worn to nothing that wouldn't affect it starting or not. It's not a diesel engine that requires a certain compression to fire. Any thoughts on both problems I mentioned?

The Kohler K301 has an automatic compression release, which can lead you to think exactly what you are guessing. It may be just fine. As far as the spark, I would go ahead and commit a few bucks to a new spark plug, wire, condenser and points. All those items are fairly cheap (Check out Tulsa Engine Warehouse . com) and I'd bet it's time to replace all those items. Get it timed properly, and then if you still have IGN issues you can think about the more expensive coil.

That is cool your pop had an IH Dealership. Do you have any old memorabilia of his you could display along with your tractors? Old brochures, signage, keychains, etc really add some vintage coolness to these old iron mules.

:beerchug:

All could be bad but.lets hope not the low compression is because of tbe ACR automatic compression release. That is normal once fires it is diabled and has way more compression

The engine has a ACR which allows the ngine to turn over easier for starting. Once started the ACR will give the engine more compression. (basic breakdown on how the ACR works) If the timing is off it won't fire. With getting good and bad spark you have to go thru the steps and trace the problem down.:bash2: Have you cleaned the points? If they sit awhile they may need to be cleaned.

Good to see that bug is still out flying around:biggrin2: You will enjoy this addiction, it's not cheap, but it will become a labor of love. And you have found the best website on the net, this group will do their very best to help you through anything you may need help with, they know their stuff.
Enjoy:beerchug:

Congrats on the new cub acquisitions!! They look like great starting points. Thanks for sharing the pics.

Maybe a valve stuck open .They spin freely when that happens.

I wish I had more IH memorabilia but my dad died last year and my mother has those sort of things. My dad was partial owners with my grandfather way back in the day and most of the IH stuff was sold with the company when my grandfather died. Now my father is dead and there is not much of this history to show of in my family except for a few old pictures my mother has.

I think I mentioned cleaning the points in my original post? Anyway, does anyone know if the coil and condeser on the K301 can be substituted with any other coils from other vehicles such as cars or trucks? I'm just hoping to get this running soon by whatever means necessary and I'm not concerned with keeping it original since it's going to be a worker and not a looker. That plus if I order the parts I'm going to have to wait longer than I'd like.
If anyone has details on setting the timing on this engine that they can tell me off the top of their head I'd appreciate it. I don't much like downloading instruction manuals online because you never know what else you could be doing to your computer by downloading these.

Umm I think you did. OPPS!:bash2: If you have a timing light you can use that or Matt's guide.

Here's Matt G's guide from the tech section of the site.
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4405

You did very well!

Now, more pix of the O please! :-)

John

PS: :Welcome2::Announce:

I bought a new spark plug. I already checked the points and sanded the contacts. After cleaning the carb I will go ahead and follow the steps written in Matt G's guide to see if the timing is close. If all of those things check out ok, does anyone know if the condenser and coil on the K301 engine can be substituted with any condenser and coil from another motorized vehicle whether it's a garden tractor, car, truck, boat, etc.? Those parts look similar to any other run-of-the-mill setup on numerous vehicles I've seen and there is no Cub Cadet dealer close to where I live but there are numerous junkyards with car parts that could possibly fit my engine. Anyone have feedback about this? Also, if my "Original" Cub still has a good functioning condenser and coil, would these parts for the K161 work on the K301?

You should be fine with an older-style automotive coil. I have a cub 72 that my father gave me that has a K301 installed in it, and I believe it has a Mopar performance coil. the only trouble I've run into is that it's a tight fit in the coil mountin bracket. It's worked great for over 30 years, so I imagine you won't run into any problems. good luck!

Ian

Is the carb on the Kohler K301 the same that would fit on a Kohler K161? My 124 has a carb but my "Original" does not. What is the brand name for the carburetor on the Original and what other engines did this unit come on? I like to hunt parts in salvage yards. It is almost like therapy for me and I plan on going out to the local yard soon and they have probably close to 2,000 various size small-engines to pick over and if the carb that Kohler used on the K161 came on anything else other than Kohlers, surely I can find at least one there. Any advice to point me in the right direction?

I think the original carb for the Original is a Carter (Is it #24? I think I stored that in one of my damaged brain cell areas).

Dunno if Walbro was ever seen on a 161,

John

I'm going to tell you what I would do to start your tractor but assume no responsibilty if you burn your tractor up or your house down. On something that has sat for a long time like yours has I take it outside away from buildings. Then I have an oil squirt can with gas in it. I prime the squirt can and then shoot one squirt into the carb. (Air cleaner element removed) If it will fire and run on that little bit of gas then the ignition is working and you have fuel problem. Once the engine fires you can keep it running a while with timed squirts of gas. Just be careful. I also have a chain saw that is hard to crank after sitting so I just take that squirt can and squirt a squirt into the muffler and it fires right up. Yes I said muffler. Two cycles engine will pick it up and run.

Can you smell gas when you crank it?

Seems to me that if you have spark but no fire, move to the fuel system. First thing is the tank valve open? (if not you might want to leave it closed and move to the next step rather than sending junk downline). Old gas turns to epoxy. Pull and flush the tank (clean gas and a handful of hex nuts seem to work but no smoking!).

Fuel line is cheap...try that next. If still no go and you have fuel to the carb, then it gets ugly. Fuel turning to epoxy in those tiny little jet holes.

I'll stop there and let the real pros opine on what solvent could be used to flush the carb in-place. Otherwise a "boil".

If it runs but runs rough, move to the ignition parts. I'd start with the points (the worst part). But everytime I suspected a coil or condensor on a Kohler motor it always traced back to the points.

The gas line leaks when I open it so I've been trying to get it to kick over with starting fluid alone. I also tried with the fuel line open and then with fuel line open and starting fluid, still no spark hot enough to ignite. Like I said before, I think the spark looks inconsistent so I bought a new plug first hoping that is it. I already sanded the points and checked them, all is good. I haven't tried starting it yet with the new plug but I'll keep you guys up to date when I do. For now I just need info on the carb for the "Original". I know it's a Carter and I think I found what I need on a Gravely 408 in the salvage yard. I looked at so many engines my memory is fuzzy but I think it had a Tecumseh under the hood. The carburetor was a Carter and it said B231739 on the top and C-234255 on the side. Is this the right carb I need for my Original Cub Cadet?

ok then...I would still suspect fuel (never a fan of starter fluid on a Kohler).

I just got my old 1250 running again and can relate...start with the easy stuff because doing the hard stuff usually results in coming back to the easy stuff and you get dents on your forehead from where you hit it with the wrench.

I assume you did a continuity check on your plug wire. I assume you disconnected the + side on the battery and removed/cleaned/reconnected all the wires to the coil. And I assume you removed/cleaned/reconnected all the ground wires (on the 1250 one at the battery side, one from the starter to the front nose frame).

Points set at .020 on the proper stroke (four stroke motor gives you a 50/50 chance of getting it correct)...points opening (not closing) is what fires the plug.

Yep, I did all those things right off the bat. I not only used starting fluid but I squirted gas directly into the carb as well and still not even a sputter. The carb is getting fuel just fine before I tried anything I removed the tank, cleaned it, and put new fuel into it. That is when I got a fuel line leak from moving the lines around. They are the metal lines but even if fuel is the issue, I've never had a gas engine that wouldn't at least try firing when directly injecting fuel into the carb, bypassing the fuel inlet hose. Like I said, the spark was weak when testing it. Unfortunetly I haven't had a chance yet to try turning it over since I bought a new spark plug. If that doesn't work I'll update the ignition coil and condenser.

spark but no fire on a Kohler...equipment grounds are clean and tight. Did you run a cont check on the ground wire from the points? (you can jumper that temporarily) but the fact that you have spark tells me that isn't the problem. same for the plug if it's close to the .025 gap.

so maybe trace back and make sure the points are opening on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke. I use a cheap volt meter connected to the coil terminals and spin by hand...the needle should change from 12v to zero as the points open on the compression stroke.

earlier you said you didn't hear anything when turning...Kohler K3xx motors have the compression release thing (supposed to ease starting I guess). turning by hand produces an audible "woosh" sound as you cycle through.

Just having spark isn't always enough to get it to kick over. If a coil is not producing enough volts the spark will not be intense enough to fire the engine. This is why the coil will be next on my list once I get back to working on it.

dunno about that...I've had a few Kohler K3xx's and once thought the problem was the coil (be happy to send the after-market replacement to you since I reverted to the original once I knew that wasn't the problem...after- market one ran hot).

every problem resorted to fuel (always had the Walbros on mine). Seems that a proper fuel/air mix in a Kohler engine always gave at least a "pop"...not necessarily a good "pop" but at least a "pop" even with a weak spark.

a good parts shop should be able to test your coil if you decide to buy a replacement there (you'll have it off anyway). if the primary and secondary windings are not much different between the old and new, you can eliminate that. condenser is really only a shock absorber to protect the points from premature wear but they are cheap so try that if you want.

so back to fuel I think! did you pop the float bowl on the carb?

If it'll run on a squirt can of gas, but not without, it is most likely a compression problem, just pop the head off and grind the valves using a valve grinding compound. Then when you stick the head back on soak the Head gasget with high heat BBQ paint

Uh, the person who said what is quoted is not the original poster. I never said it would run with a squirt of gas, it wont run at all. It wont turn over fast enough to start. I thought it was due to a weak battery but after replacing the battery with a brand new one it is still the same.
So far this is what I've done since bringing it home:
-cleaned the inside of the gas tank/added fresh gas
-rebuilt the carb/installed new gasket between engine and carb and carb and filter
-replaced the previous owners rubber gas line hack-job with OE hard steel lines
-sanded contact points on both ends of all wires that are hooked to the ignition coil
-put in a new battery
-Sanded battery cable ends
-Checked ignition points and sanded them
-Replaced spark plug

After all of this I was pretty sure that this would be all that was needed to fire it up since the previous owner said it was running less than a year ago. I turned the key only to hear it cranking really slow for a couple seconds before one of the starter/generator wires caught fire.
So now I'm thinking the guy was lying to me about it running even though it had fresh gas in it when I bought it. If it ran a little while ago it would not have caught fire while cranking.
Since I'm new to these small garden tractors my next question is, the wire in the photo that melted, can this be replaced without taking out the engine? Can anyone tell me if the wire in question appears to be the right gauge or not? If it's an undersized wire that caused the fire, that is an easy fix. I just hope the wiring problem doesn't lead to anything else.

I'm of the alternator group and not familiar with the old generators. but did you pull a wiring diagram for your machine? the heavy red lead looks to be original. what is the one that connects to it (looks to be 12ga primary wire) and looks to be the one that went "poof"?

hopefully somebody will point you to the wiring diagram. I always crave knowledge and would be interested in seeing how this operates...at first glance it looks like there is no solenoid and it is wired directly from the switch (which on my 1250 gets changed out frequently...dunno why but they don't seem to last long). sitting for a year, a mouse or just old wire and cracked insulation on the (cheap) wire causing it to ground out somewhere? I'd follow up on that before servicing the starter.

New points, and timed properly, check the sftey switch?