Electric PTO Woes
 

Today I started my 2084 and realized the snow blower was running. Looked at the switch and it was off. I turned it on and heard a click like it always does and turned it off and it sounded like it always does but the pto was still turning.

Couple of questions: Are the electric ptos all pretty much the same or are they diff for diff models.

Could my problem be from a bad switch or a malfunctioning seat safety switch.

You may need to check the air gap setting for your PTO. Sounds like it is too close and allowing the PTO to turn with the crank. :bigthink:

You either have one of two problems. It will be either electrical or mechanical. If there is a electrical issue as you describe, then simply "unplug" the PTO and see if it stops. If it does, then you will have to trace back where the problem is. If the PTO still rotates (mechanical), then it is time to pull the PTO off and apart and see what has froze up the movement of the magnetic clutch.

Or you have a bad bearing in the PTO. If it's a bearing they can be replaced as long as the rest of it is still good.

Many thanks guys this gives me at the least a plan of attack. I may be able to check the pto out this evening. Stand by I may have more questions.

EricR and I went out and pulled the wire out and I started the machine and the pto still turned. I shut it off and just turned the key to the run position and flipped the switch and got a click and when I turned it off I also got a click so electrically my clutch is working but it is definately stuck in the on position as it runs my 451 snow blower whether the switch is on or off. I have not worked on the electric clutches so this will be a first for me. It is a 1993 2084 and me without a service manual so please stand by for more stupid questions.

No such thing as a stupid question. We are here to help if we can. :beerchug:

Eric and I went out to the garage tonight and proceeded to remove the hood, grill, upper and lower metal around the muffler and finally the muffler itself. The plastic grill need some attention due to a couple of cracks. Will a quality 2 pt epoxy work on that. Finally we got down to the PTO. We got it off fairly easy and it got too late to go further as it needs cleaned up before attempting disassembly. I presume the three bolts with the springs under them when taken off will allow access to the interior. the pto shaft looks good as does the key groove and the key.

Paul

I think I have a PTO that will fit your tractor. It came of a Kohler M12 in my 1210, it's good. I had replaced the original one that failed a couple years ago so it only has about 100 hours on it. I'll post some pics of it. Take the 3 nuts off that hold it together and see if you have a bad bearing in the part with the pulley. As far as the cracks in the plastic if you can post a couple pics I'll try to give you some ideas on how to repair it.

Sam

Paul

First a couple pics of the PTO that I removed from my 1210. This style only has one bearing because it bolts to the front of the engine.

Second are a couple pics of the bad PTO that I removed from my 2182 to show you a some things to look for on your PTO. If all that is wrong is a bad bearing it can be pressed out of the pully and replaced. Much cheaper than buying a new PTO. This style has two bearings and mounts on the shaft but the coil is held by a pin that screws into the front of the block or by a rod on the Kubota engines that is bolted to the front of the engine. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the heads up Sam, I will take pics here later and let you know how we make out. Thank You.

We got the pto clutch apart. Things look pretty good inside but then again what do we know this is the first electric clutch we have seen the inside of. Since we had already checked the electrical portion out and heard distinct clicks when we flipped the switch the working components are working. Now if the bearing in the picture is supposed to turn, this one does not.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...9/2084pto6.jpg

Well you found the problem. Easy fix. press the old bearing out, take it to your local bearing suppy house, get a new one, press it back in and reassemble and your good to go. :biggrin2:

Many thanks to all. Infact the bearing has numbers on it. We have a couple of possibilities to get the offending bearing pressed out but may just Wait till we get a new one and have the old one pressed out and the new one pressed in at the same time. Now for a critical question. What is the air gap supposed to be when reassembling the clutch. Hey with you experts help this is fun, very dirty but fun nontheless.

Page 19 in this manual says .015 is the air gap.

http://www.ccmanuals.info/pdf/2084%2...s%20Manual.pdf

Thanks Dwayne If I see or hear nothing different .015 it is. The clutch actually is fairly simple in its operation and looks a bit easier than the manual to set up. Now as soon as I can find a super bearing for my super tractor I do believe Eric and I can Git-r-done. Of course without some super net friends we would have been in deep do do. Yes I do plan to get a service manual for these supers. I was looking and one manual covers both the 2084 and 2086 we have.

You can put a socket on the bearing and tap it out with a hammer. Then clean it good and use some retaining compound and let it cure. I think the bearing is a 6206 double sealed and should cost less then $20.

Thanks for the removal tip Oak. I have a couple of friends with access to a press and from the looks of the way the original is mounted it could be a tough job to remove because of the way it was held in. On three spots around the rim the rim was peened in so that bearing was not made to replace but has been done. I could try as the old bearing is not a bearing any more as it is froze tight. If I can get a new bearing before I try to remove the old one a friend may do the pressing for nothing and I really like that price.

Paul

It's easier to do it with a press and you stand less of a chance of bending the pulley but I can be done with a socket and a hammer. Don't worry about the 3 sopts where they peened it, the bearing should just push out.

Sam

I hold it in one hand and hammer with the other. They are not held in too tight and the couple that I did only took a few taps with a hammer. The peened area will not be there once you get the old bearing out.

I was thinking of making a wooden support aka a wood ring with a hole big enough for the bearing to slip through. My thinking is to support the pulley but allow me to make some more solid hits to dislodge the offending part. I will try the holding in one hand and hitting with the other.

Those 3 peened areas convinced me I would damage the pulley if I started pushing/hitting.

I ground them off-completely!!

After changing the bearing I re-peened three new spots.

I wish I had thought of using a 3M liquid to install the new bearing, that would have been easier.:bigthink:

Last evening after finishing our 102 and getting it all repaired and back together EricR and I had at the bearing in the 2084s pto. We got the bearing to start out with EricR holding it and me tapping on a socket sitting on the inside of the bearing. We then cut a hole in a piece of 3/4 inch plywood a little larger than the bearing and got the offending bearing removed fairly easily without any damage to the pulley. Now to find a replacement and get it installed and the pto adjusted and reinstalled after a bit of front engine cleanup.

Update: This morning I managed to get the grease and gunk cleaned off the front of the engine on my 2084. At noon I called the shop and my new bearing is in so Off to Milesburg Auto Electric and was pleasantly surprised to find it cost just a little over $15 and the inner race even turns. Now to get the bearing back into the PTO this evening and get everything back together.

It Works!!! Eric and I tapped the new bearing into place and reassembled the pto, and set the air gap at .015 and strapped enough parts back on the tractor to start it. With all your help we are back in business the pto works just fine. Thanks to all. Anyone else have trouble getting the exhaust bolts tight on a command 20.

Paul

Don't know about getting the bolts tight but they were a PITA getting off on the CH22 I'm working on. Thinking about welding a flat bar to a 13MM socket to get at the two inner nuts. Had to take all the tin work and controls off to get a wrench on them. I'd love to see what they use at the factory.

Sam

Is it that you can't get access to them to tighten them, or that they won't tighten? If it's the latter, it's probably time for a helicoil.

Our problem with tightening or for that matter loosening the exhaust is getting any sort of wrench on the inside nuts. The exhaust comes out and near immediately makes a 90 degree turn into the muffler. With the exhaust tube, the muffler, and the choke and gas cables just above it poses a real problem getting both the inner nuts tight. We tried every wrench I had and every socket but there is very little room to use a wrench and too much of an angle due to the exhaust pipe to use a socket. Our only knuckle sockets were for 1/4 inch drive and not enough beef to get the nut tight enough. Those nuts have to be tight or they leak but are in such a position they are near impossible to get tight. I believe we began to refer to them as the nuts from Hades. If they do not hold tight we are planning on putting lock washers on them next time.

Paul

Yep same issue I had getting them off. I think I can make something that will make the job easier because I have 2 of these that I have to put back together. I'll keep you posted.:bash2:

I don't recall having the problem with the CH18 on my 582...do you have offset box-end wrenches?

Matt

I have off set box wrenches and short of removing the engine controls it's a PITA to get at the nut on the left side as you sit on the tractor. I'm going to weld a piece of bar stock to a 13MM socket. I attached a couple pics. The nut on the right side is no big deal.:bash2:

Yep Sam that is the nut in the first pic that we were having a problem with also. Last night after we quit and I got home I got to thinking maybe a crows foot socket on a swivel might help! Just not enough room around that muffler.

Gonna make something that will work and not be stupid expensive. I'll post a pic when I get it made.

After clean up and disassembly and getting a new bearing pressed in I set to tractor reassembly last night. She is all together and back to working condition. Thanks for the tips guys they gave me the courage to tackle this little job and sucessfully too I might add.

Glad it work for you Paul. That's what makes this site so great. Only thing we ask for is more pictures.

Oak I took my computer down to the garage and pointed it at the cadet but it refused to take any pics. Sorry I will use a camera next time

:bash2:

I hate when that happens!:biggrin2:

Same here!

Just reinstalled the engine on my 1872 after replacing the ignition module. Started up and runs great. This morning, I reattached the mower deck and gave a whirl. The PTO will not stay engaged once I release the switch. If I hold the switch forward, the mower deck will function. I'm assuming I may have inadvertently had a wire come loose, but darned if I can find it. Any thoughts ?

Have you checked you air gap again?:bigthink: