1650 cranks slow - usually
 

My K341 cranks slow most of the time but not all the time. I've set the timing, put in new points, plug, coil, condenser. Cleaned the carbon and replaced the gasket. Checked connections and all was well. When it was apart I could see the exhaust valve lift for the ACR. After that it cranked fine again but in short order it was slowed. I even tried jumping straight to the starter and it was slow. Previously I did replace the starter with another used one and it cranked fine for a little bit. It seems to me it is not releasing the pressure because of the pressure coming out of the carb. Could the ACR be intermittently working?

Because I can't find anything about intermittent slow cranking I figure this is not a common problem. I read about the hydro fluid being thick could cause slow cranking which could be affected by temp in my mind. Any thoughts? I'm left with thinking the starter could be the culprit. In the fall it seemed like a cold temp issue but I brought it in a heated space and now it's acting up in a room heated or cold. Of course time has gone and so the problem could have gotten worse but it did crank properly a few times lately as well. Any ideas at all?

I have an idea. Its a lot of work but it might save you some $$

Check your clearances between the valve and the lifter on your exhaust valve. Make sure they are at .020. If they are, try tightening up the clearance...say .010. This will allow the exhaust valve to "raise" up just a little more when the ACR kicks in. This could tell you if your ACR is not working properly. I did this to a 107 to soon find out the ACR isnt quite right.

This is obviously a test and shouldnt be run this way for the long run. It will cause you to lose power.

Its just an idea. Hope this helps.

That did occure to me at one point. I did check and it is at .020 but I didn't want run the risk of causing more damage since these K Series are new to me so I didn't try reducing the gap then I forgot about it as an option. I will be giving it a try. Thanks

Some of the known issues for a slow crank are:

* Bad battery cables and/or connections
* Inadequate grounding
* Low capacity battery
* Sluggish or bad starter
* Bad or improperly adjusted ACR
* Incorrect motor oil
* Incorrect Hydro Fluid or needs changing

:IH Trusted Hand:

Does anybody have a link to where I can read more about ACR? I having some slow cranking issues with my 149. I wonder if this might be my problem. I have changed to winter oil and upgraded to a higher CCA battery and it still seems kinda weak.

That's what I needed, a list of possible causes. I didn't change the Hy-Tran or filter yet but I do have them here. I could see the exhaust valve lift for the ACR but I just have flat feeler gauges in that range so I can't really check it right. I've just about convinced myself it's the starter even though that would mean both of them I have here are no good. I was wanting to hold off on changing the Hy-Tran out till it runs right again as I've never done it before. The starter is what I see as most likely cause for intermittent slow cranking. At least I now know it's likely one of these three being the root to my whoas. Thanks R Bedell.
Curtis

Sorry Steve. All I know is what's in the manuals and what I learned here.
Curtis

Here is the link you requested..... Service Manual.

Look at Section 9

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...ACRDiagram.jpg

I downloaded the service manual, but the pictures suck! Thanks for the better diagram.

Roland, that is a better picture. If it is proportionate, that tang inside may need bent because mine don't lift that far for the ACR. I did lap the valves recently and it does lift for the ACR but I have no way to measure the lift.

The good news (if you want to call it that), I discovered the starter was faulty. I swapped it out with my other used one and they do not work the same. One cranked better than the other. Turning the starter by hand it had a fair bit of internal grinding. Just in handling it it stopped the grind sound. I popped it back in and she fired up but not right away. Now, today we were up into the 50's so temperature could still play a roll but I believe my problem resides in my starter. Are these starters for the K341 serviceable or should I just get a new one?

The bad news, I've developed a new problem but a simple one I believe. After it ran for 10 or 15 minutes I shut it down. I tried to fire it back up and got nothing. No power to the starter at all. I measured. I suspect the clutch safety switch but it could be a poor connection somewhere. I did jump straight to the starter and it worked so I'm thinking the connections are alright. Otherwise it wouldn't have worked with the bypass because the key has to be in the on position. Am I thinking right?

Curtis

If it wont turn over from the key, but will turn over from the starter by bypassing the key, you have a connection problem, or the safety switch needs cleaned. Check all of your connections.

On the starter, off the top of my head, I'm thinking that is a perm magnet starter (could be wrong as it's been a while since I worked on your model) but the magnets tend to come unglued and/or break in these starters and that could be your problem. take it apart and inspect it, or it just could be worn brushes.
Scribe a line on the starter case, so it goes back together the same way it was.
The brushes are a pain on reassembly if you don't make little "C" or "U" shaped pieces of coffee can to hold them in while you assemble it.

George's memory is correct. I have had the glued on Magnets come loose on my 1450 starter before. Putting the brushes in, are a PITA. For me, it is a new starter or the repair shop. It is just better for my nerves...:biggrin2:

Starter
 

Is it the Delco S/G?

You can see what you're getting into in my "O" thread. Yes, bearings and brushes are available quite reasonably. Mine cost $17 for 2 new sealed bearings and 2 new brushes . It's a pretty easy job if your Cub hasn't been sitting in the rain rusting for 9 years. :-)

AFAIK, the end pieces can only go back one way. ... at least on the delco I'm working on.

John

The Quietlines did NOT have a Delco-Remy S/G.

I'll be opening it up to see what's going on. I'd rather do the brushes and put that $ into something else. Thanks for the tip on scribing it first and cutting the can to slip it back in.

I think I'll pull it apart and see how hard it is go get together before I decide if I'll do it myself. I expect I will and if I do, at least we'll get pics on here of the process.

I've got three machines with the S/G. Fortunately they are good. I'd much rather lay out the $17 than have to pay for a new, used, or rebuilt one.
Below is a pic of the weaker starter. I've done brushes before so that shouldn't be to awful bad. I don't expect much trouble with getting that electrical situation hunted out either. I't always cranked when it should have even if it was slow. I checked the connections recently so they should still be good. I'm really thinking it's just the safety switch. I have one that is good so we'll see.
Thanks guys,
Curtis

Ya that is a perm magnet style, look Carefully @ the 2 pole magnets, if they are broken anywhere it will be real down on power.
I have one still running after 10 years that I re glued on my ol'Green GT..
but if the magnet is broken, it's time for another.
Epay had some new ones fair priced, not like mother Cub or Deere.

I tracked down the electrical problem. The clutch safety switch checked out alright so off comes the tins, tank, and heat shield. I start chasing wires and connections and it's checking out alright then it hits me. :Forgot: Since I've gotten it I had to depress the toggle on the PTO switch after use if I shut it down. That's all it needed. I haven't used the PTO since I put the blade on. I suppose someone walking by flipped the switch. That should have been easier than getting the clutch on the O to release which I thought was going to be difficult but I had to turn it into and event. Now lets see how hard I can make this starter repair. :NailBite: I called NAPA and got a price of $178.00 for a new one so I believe a repair is in order if possible.
Curtis

Starter repaired
 

I opened up the starter. The one brush was worn to the wire and the wire came out. The magnets were fine. I took the other apart and the magnets were broke but the brushes were good. I cleaned it up and swapped the ends with the brushes. Used a piece of card stock to help hold the brushes to get it together. I cut a slit in it for the shaft to slide it out after the thing was together. Not very difficult after it was figured out. It started several times. I'm not convinced the ACR is set correctly but it seems alright. Thanks for everything everyone.

Hello fellow 1650 owner. I too had the same problem with slow cranking on my 1650. I tried other batterys out of other tractors with same results. Here is what I found out. O'rilleys sells a higer cranking amp battery for lawn tractor/mowers that are not on the shelf. You have to know someone there to know they sell them. Ask the sales guy/gal if they have a higer cranking amps battery in back. I happened to have a friend at my local store that is a Cub Cadet guy and told me about the higher amp battery. So I bought one. They are a couple dollars more, like $5 maybe, and are (at my store) on sale for somewhere in the $30 range right now. Got a new one, popped it in the 1650 and "VROOOOM" fired up better than any new battery I have ever put in a lawn tractor. In my opinion the starter and compression on a 1650 may be a little more needy than your normal lawn tractor battery can handle. This fixed my problem for now. I hope it fixes my problem long into the future also as I have always had slow cranking or even no starting on my 1650 sence I bought it.
Give it a try and let me know if it works for you and anyone else reading this let me know if this idea of the starter and motor just needing a few more amps to really get cranking. I even was to the point of trying to mount a automotive battery to this thing because like I said it always cranked really slow and didnt want to fire up.
Take care and good luck
John

There should be a part # on your battery you got that we could check on at our parts stores.

John,
I got mine squared away. It was my starter. I had a spare and both were shot. One had broken magnets and the other had worn brushes. I took the two and made one. It cranks properly now. I was looking everywhere else because I couldn't see me having two bad starters. If higher CCA helps yours, I would start to suspect a poor connection. Putting a car battery on mine did seem to help but it still wasn't cranking right. I would suspect your timing is correct but worth checking. Your compression release is another likely cause. I really don't think the battery is your issue if it cranks others engines, even a 10 hp. There's 4 brushes in the starter. I was working with two. Now all 4 are good and my cheap Advance Auto (375 CCA battery if I recall correctly) battery even with a poor charge does well.
Start a thread. It will be running properly with everyones advice. If you have the ability, open the starter and check the magnets and brushes. It's not as daunting as I thought.
Good luck.