Model 125 loose front starter pulley / PTO clutch issue???
 

My problem is this.....On my model 125 Cub Cadet, the large pulley on the front of the Kohler 12 HP motor shaft, which carries the belt to the starter/generator, will not maintain it's position on the motor shaft. The pulley is obviously keyed onto the motor shaft and so it turns just fine with the motor...but the problem is that it slides backward and forward a good half inch or more on the shaft creating a severe belt misalignment with the starter/generator pulley. The belt is continually being thrown off the pulleys, so my battery is not being charged while running, and I have to re mount the starter belt each time in order to restart the motor.
My question is.....Can I somehow secure the large pulley without having to remove the clutch assembly that sits in front of it? I see no obvious way to accomplish this, and so I turn to the forum experts for help.
Note too that the frame obstructs the use of a puller tool, so removal of the clutch assembly may require the lifting of the motor to provide puller tool clearance. Whew, what an ordeal for what seems to be a simple issue.
Thanks in advance for any help you may offer.
Jim

There should be a couple of holes in the metal cup the clutch sets back into. There are set screws down on the pulley shaft that probably need to be tightened back up. They are allen screws. One screw will set against the shaft key and one will be 90 degrees from it and set against the crankshaft.

Here is a good pic. There are access holes in the cup.

Attachment 18005

set screw access holes
 

Thanks so much for that nice yellow photo. Now I can clearly see where the set screws are located, and I have found them on mine.
Those set screws are really rusted in and I cannot budge them even with a good fitting Allen key. Any suggestions on that item?
It seems that as I am working on this beast, I no sooner identify one issue...but another one pops up. Is there no end????
jim

there is an end but you just do not know when you get there, remember you are dealing with something that was likely made before men were walking on the moon and things tend to rust even when properly stored.

if your Allen fits snugly do not try and force it, pb blaster and time is your friend here soak it down and wait a day or two, if you think spray it down 2-3 times a day and i have found most things will come loose.

if it is as loose as you described you may want to remove PTO and inspect every thing to ensure there is not to much wear on the shaft.

As bsyphrit has said, use plenty of PB Blaster and we are talking for a few days. Give it time to work in. I use a 1/4" drive ratchet an extra long length of Allen tool and a socket that would fit the tool exactly. I cut the length of tool till I was able to slide the socket and tool down till it is securely engaged into the set screw and then would use the ratchet to help apply a good amount of pressure and keep working it. If it didn't feel like it was going to break loose I would squirt it again with some PB and try again the next day.

As for never ending, that is why many of us end up either doing a good complete mechanical overhaul during the winter or as soon as we pick up our cub from a seller. There really isn't a whole lot on these little machines that cannot be fixed or repaired. A person just have to have some patience and time. I was never much on patience in the past, but these last couple of years and my refurbish of my 128 have really made me learn to take my time. Let us know how things go. :beerchug:

PB Blaster...great idea
 

I just want to say thanks to all who have contributed to the potential cure for my little Cub problem. I will use the PB blaster on those pulley set screws and we shall see what time and patience can do.
It'll give me some time to tend to the other issues.....like trying to find a new front rim. The one that came on the machine had been run without much of a outer bearing left in it, and so the rim is worn away and needs to be replaced....and I cant seem to find one real handy. Would a golf cart shop be a likely place to try?
Charging may be another issue. Grounding the field terminal on the regulator gets it charging quite nicely...for a minute or so, and then the meter indicator drops off again. Maybe the battery is full up and the reg'r is working fine and doing what it should do....or maybe there is a strange regulator problem....I just dont know yet. I'm thinking that a nice solid state regulator would be a good idea......but where could I buy one that will work perfectly with this machine?
Then I will have to repair or replace the headlights. I dont intend do work this machine in the dark...but then you just never know. Summers in South Florida get way too hot during the day...the nights are sometimes much better for getting things done.
And I guess this Cub thing goes on and on and on.
Thanks again guys.
jim

I agree... it's good stuff ... patience that is. PB blaster is good too! :-)

One other hint... if you have a long key and can put the allen key in the set screw and give it a couple good raps on the back end of the key... followed by more PB, the impact can help unfreeze the screw also.


John

Blaster is in....
 

Here's my plan of attack. I have soaked the set screws with PB Blaster...twice yesterday, and I have turned a small diameter steel rod in the lathe so that the new turned down end will just fit inside the socket head of the frozen set screws, without scraping their sides and possibly damaging the grip surfaces for the allen key.
I will set this rod into the allen head set screw and use it as a device to hammer on, and hopefully assist the Blaster in doing its work.
This way I will save my good tempered snug fitting allen key from abuse.
I'll keep on blasting and hammering until the screws relent.....and it is my fondest hope that they relent someday soon.
My can of Blaster didn't come with a properly fitting tube to spray through, so I am having to make-do with something left over from a can of wd40 or something like that. The trick is to keep the tube into the nozzle of the spray can while spraying...and at the same time, trying to hold the tube at something like a 90 degree angle to focus the blaster in the correct area.
Three hands would be nice! I'll let you know how this episode turns out.

If you take off the grill 'n hood, you will only need 2 1/2 hands!! LOL

:biggrin2:

TIP #1)I use Q-tips W/plastic stems they fit most spray cans. just nip off the cotton ends or leave one end on and use it as an applicator.:ThumbsUp:
TIP #2) If you use the Q-tip for it's intended purpose first, there might be no need for PB cuz that will lube lots of stuff!!:biggrin2:

Thats a good tip on the Q tip.Saves that can of gold stuff from going to waste.

A new "dedicated" Blaster tube.
 

Hey guys.....never satisfied with the status quo, I used some CA glue......always on hand for my R/C airplanes hobby....and permanently glued a little 4" wd40 spray tube into the PB Blaster nozzle.
Now the applicator tube will never get blown away from the nozzle.
Still not good enough....I found another slightly larger plastic tube and CA glued it onto the wd40 tube. Now I have a "dedicated" Blaster tube that is about 14" in overall length, easily bends into any odd angle needed, reaches into tight spots with surgical precision, and will absolutely never blow off the can while in use.
However, all this inventive genius not withstanding....the set screws are still quite frozen in position.
I may have to remove the PTO clutch in order to really have a good close up, wide angle view, at the problem. And that isn't going to be easy.
Since I have that wonderful Danco loader on the machine....working up front is terribly inconvenient. The clutch also has set screws....three sets of two in each hole, and there is no reason, other than wishful thinking, for them to be any anymore easily removable. And so the saga continues.....
Jim

screws are still stuck.
 

Days have passed, and all the PB Blaster has done little or nothing...neither has my judicious hammering on them to shock them into submission.
Now I am entering phase 2...or is it phase 3...I have lost track. LOL.
I have removed the massive front casting that they may call a grill.....but at 40 or so pounds....it is more than just a grill. This gives me much greater access to the offending screws. Over the next day or so I will attempt to drill them out. This should be fun.
The pic's are probably self explanatory, but the big yellow thing is what I am calling the grill, and the other pic is the now much more accessible dirty work area. I'll degrease it tomorrow before beginning my "machining" work.
More to follow.
Jim

It will probably go a lot easier if you go ahead and remove the PTO clutch. It has to come off anyway to remove the PTO bearing and bearing retainer to get the pulley off.

Oh yes...
 

The clutch has to come off too. I really want to see everything inside there before I put this little monster back together. I have discovered that the clutch set screws also are frozen in place...hence the plan to drill everything out.....If I can.
jim

From looking at the condition of the rest of the tractor, I am surprised to hear you are having so much trouble with the set screws.

Normally there would be more corrosion on other parts of the machine.

If you are going to drill anyway, why not try one of those cordless impact drivers??

I have a cheap ($100) Milwaukee, that thing is AMAZING!!

I would go get the right bit and try the impact driver if it were mine.

I just took apart a well rusted 108, that driver got every fastener loose except for the lug nuts and the tread bolts.

I didn't try it on the clutch, yet!

Good luck.

I'm with CADplans, those cannot be stuck that bad. Drilling them out should be an absolute LAST resort, as there's a high likelihood that you'll mess up the threaded holes in the clutch by doing so.

I have removed clutches that were on hoodless tractors stored outside for years and consequently very rusted. The key here is patience. PB blaster sometimes needs a week or more to work, and any other cleaning you can do is helpful. Hint: dental pick. Make sure all the crap is out of the hex recess in the setscrew, and use a high-quality (and not ball-ended) allen wrench to remove the screw. Tap it in with a hammer, and use a vice grip on the allen wrench for more leverage. The are usually fairly tight, even with no rust, so you need more leverage than a typical allen wrench can offer. A handheld impact driver may also be helpful. If you mess up the hex in the screw, there is a Torx bit that'll fit and give you a second chance. An EZ-out may provide a third chance...there is a size of those that'll grip correctly once the hex is worn. Out of a dozen clutches or more I have removed, I have drilled out a total of ONE setscrew, and only because the PO of the tractor messed up the hex beforehand.

Great suggestions guys...
 

Thanks for the updates. I guess I will hold off on drilling, and use more Blaster, and allen key hammering. It can't hurt. The Torx bit sounds like a very good second line of attack. I will have to get some Torx drivers that I can hammer into the hex screw for a good solid grip. ...or maybe even try them in my hammer drill...in reverse of course. I am thinking that this machine may have been some ones restoration project...at least the paint looks to be that good...but perhaps they did not get down to the insides of things...like these clutch and pulley set screws.
While working on the starter/generator issues, I discovered the rear mounting bolt for the s/g had been broken off. I pulled the S/G, and then removed the S/G mounting bracket holding the broken off bolt. With the bracket removed it was a snap to drill into that broken off bolt. Then with a torch, and an E-Z out...that became a good clean fix. It's nice when the offending part can be placed on the workbench, or on a drill press. LOL.
More updates to follow.....
jim

the joys...
 

The real fun starts when you get to remove a broken Torx bit or snapped off "EZ out" .

:bash2:

Cast iron really rusts well, doesn't it, but that photo shows a machine that looks like it's spent a lot of time indoors. PBblaster does take time, rap it, blast with blaster, wait...repeat ....

John

my 2 cents worth
 

I haven't seen any one mention my favorite method yet. We use it all the time in my trade at work, HEAT. And I use it successfully on my tear downs and repairs here at home as well. Once the clutch is removed, some heat from a propane torch aimed right at the collar usually causes it to grow enough to break the grip the rust has on the set screw.

partial success today
 

Today was a celebration day....I have finally removed one of two set screws in the pulley....and two out of three set screws in the clutch. That leaves one more to go in the pulley....and one more to go in the clutch.
Note that there are not two set screws in each hole as was expected......
I guess someone has been in here before....LOL.
Over a couple of days, I used many applications of PB Blaster, along with some hammering on a nicely lathe turned steel rod fitting into the hex head set screws to set up some heavy vibrations, and it has achieved some success.
I will let the Blaster work overnight again on the remaining two set screws, and have a go at them in the morning with the allen key in the socket wrench. Next will be to try the impact driver, and if that fails I may just have to resort to drilling.
I am not worried about drilling out the existing threads. Once the clutch and pulley is out, I can set it up in the drill press, or in the mill, and bore the hole oversize and tap it for new, larger, set screws.
After I get the final set screw out, my next question is....can I use a puller on the clutch? Will the center button on the clutch handle that kind of stress?
more to follow on this exciting adventure...
Jim

You'll probably have a hard time getting a 2 or 3-jaw puller on there. This is what I used with a slide hammer...works great!

One of our members here made this video on PTO removal. It will work with the motor in the tractor too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O4FE1tE_AM

Finally, the clutch is out.
 

It took a lot of blaster, and a lot of waiting time, and a lot of hammering, but I won out in the end.
When nice hardened hex keys stripped out, I went to a Torx bit..and hammered it in tight....that worked on one of 'em....but on the final screw I had to go to a square bit, and I hammered it in quite heavily. I have to confess that after all this nasty work and torturous frustration, I took some warped satisfaction out of bashing the offending screw with a heavy hammer.
Now, I can see whats behind all this, and I expect that replacement parts will be on order very soon. Some of the parts that were in there looked terrible....as though they had been abused in the past.
I can understand that after what I just went through.

Glad to see you got the PTO off. I am curious to see how hard the pulley will be. I ended up having to drill two 3/8" holes, one on each side of the center shaft, so I could use a harmonic balancer remover to get the pulley off of the crank shaft.

That bearing needs replacing, too...I wonder what happened to the seal?

Now look at the mess I have...LOL.
 

After removing the PTO clutch, which took a puller to get it off, I could see that some damage had occurred in this front area sometime in this machines earlier life.
In frustration and disgust, I next applied the puller jaws right on the bearing....knowing that it was shot and needed to be replaced. I didn't care if the bearing got ripped apart...it was going to be replaced anyway. Interestingly, the bearing came off the shaft and was no worse for wear than before I opted to destroy it.
Then the retainer came out, in two pieces, using the same puller again.
Then the pulley was relatively easy...flopping around as it was. It just slid off the motor shaft quite easily by hand.
This was a moment for celebration. The old stuff was now finally and at long last, off the machine.
Since I have a rear weight box, and no intention of using a rear PTO, I will most likely not reinstall the clutch. This Cub will be used just for the Danco loader, and eliminating the clutch will make my job easier to complete.
The clutch will sit in a zip lock bag for the next owner...if he wants to mess with it.
Now all I had to do was take the pulley into my shop and wrestle that last set screw out. Yeah, right!!!!
The screw was shot beyond use. I mounted the pulley in a huge vise, and began to work again on removing the final set screw. I applied a torch, got it smoking hot, but the screw would not budge...not at all, and I tried every bit I had on hand, Torx, square, etc, to try to get a purchase on it. Finally, I decided to just drill it out. That was a chore because the screw is recessed so far back inside that cup on the pulley that standard jobber bits couldn't rearch it. More frustration. With the drill bits just barely into the drill chuck, I could just barely get in far enough to drill out the screw....it was a nasty job, but with lots of patience, I finally drilled it out for a 1/4-20 tap.
Now the fun really begins. Taps are shorter than the drill bits, so I had to turn the tap inside the "cup" using a very tiny open end wrench....ignition wrench style.
This job was really wearing on me. I oiled, and tapped, and just about wore out my hands on that tiny wench and miraculously I finally saw the tap coming through the hole. Voilla...I was almost finished......then the wrench snapped. I was so close to completion, I continued on using a crescent wrench on the tap....then the tap snapped. So, now I am recovering with a frosty beer, and I am about to look up the cost of a new pulley. After all I have been through with this seemingly small issue, I am unable to approach trying to remove the broken tap.....primarily because the hole with the broken tap in it is so difficult to reach.
A new pulley may cost a bunch...but it may also help calm my frayed nerves.
Note in the pics, the bearing seal is lying loose with the retainer etc...just as it came out of the machine. See the tap tip emerging inside the pulley hub.
I hope that my efforts will serve to assist others who face this task, and I wish them much more success than I have had with it.
Jim

Hard fought battle
 

Glad you got it off. PB really is good stuff, but it's not FAST good stuff all the time.

It's sometimes satisfying to finally wield the Big Hammer!

John

If you are not going to use the clutch, why not put a taper lock cast iron pulley on instead??

I'm not familiar with that name....
 

Would such a pulley be less expensive? And where would I go to buy it?
I found the correct pulley online...used, but clean and in fresh primer, for $50 plus shipping.
jim

Grainger's and bearings places sell them, far superior, no key needed, but they can use them.

Tighten a couple bolts and they come right off.

They also suit banged up shafts.

Well balanced, new!, and the mass will make the engine run smoother!!! :bigthink:

That's what Danco shipped the loader with and not use the cub pto at all. I don't know the size right off the t op of my head but I'll check the manuals I have and see if I can get a size for you.

the pulley measures.....
 

The starter/generator pulley measures 7 1/4" Diameter, with a 1" bore...and of course it has the 1/4" key way.
I bought the replacement online already, so I guess it will be shipping to me one day soon.
I'm going over to Tractor supply this morning to see what they have in their line of pulleys. I may just come home with a useable pulley....but I don't know what the pitch should be called??? I'll take the old pulley with me to match things up.....it's probably a pretty standard V belt groove.
It's amazing how much time can be spent fixing seemingly small issues...LOL.
Fortunately the weather here in south west Florida is ideal for doing work outdoors. If I were up north...this project would probably be on hold till summer.....or at least until a major snow fall happened....forcing me to get the tractor working again to clear the snow.
jim

No luck on finding a usable pulley at tractor supply.
 

At this point I am just waiting for the correct replacement part to arrive from the used parts supplier in Indiana. Until then, everything is pretty much on hold. I wish I could find a way to convert this 12 HP Kohler from a belt drive starter system, to a more reliable flywheel gear drive...like a regular automobile set-up.
Any clues on that issue?
Happy Holiday to all.
Jim

Well, you could install a Quiet Line engine, into the wide frame, but you will have to completely re wire it because those use internal stators instead of the generator and don't require the Voltage regulator. But personally I prefer the generator/starter system do to much easier maintenance. If the stator goes out of the QL engine, you have to pull the engine, pull the flywheel and install a new stator, then re install the engine.

Jim,
Good post on a small problem that turns big. My friend at the tool shop told me the other day. Stop and bring the part to him before I mess it up more:). Your write up was good and these screws in the clutch and starter pulley can be some of the toughest items on these machines. You did real good I give you a A+!
Hope the new pulley works out!
Regards,
Chris

Thank you for the kind words.
 

I am glad to think that others may benefit from my experiences.
I have confirmation that the replacement pulley has shipped...so perhaps early next week I'll get this episode behind me. I did mess around with the old pulley to try to remove the broken tap.....No luck.
I suspect that my #7 drill for the 1/4-20 tap may have been a tiny bit undersize. Another writer suggests to drill one size larger for tapping...still achieving about 80% of the thread contact and strength. It sounds like a good idea...if only I could go back...LOL.
Today I managed to wiggle the broken tap bit, just slightly, by lightly hammering on it with a small center punch. In so doing, I ultimately managed to snap off the lead end of the tap that was protruding into the shaft bore. However, a chunk of the tap is still firmly stuck in the pulley, and since I do not have a tap removing tool....it will probably remain in place for a good long time. Since the tap is recessed inside the clutch cup, it becomes an extraordinarily difficult thing to work on without special tooling. In a pinch, now that I have snapped off the lead end of the tap, it no longer interferes with the pulley going back onto the shaft...so I could re-install the pulley and use it with just the one set screw to hold it in place.....that being the set screw that hits the 1/4" key. Perhaps A better idea is for me to take a break from all this, and relax a while, waiting for the new pulley to arrive.
My thanks to all who have been supportive with constructive comments and suggestions. I am so happy to have discovered this web site.
Bye for now.
Jim

You are doing the right thing. When you get tensed over something, it's always best to back off and just let it go for a couple days and then come back and attack it with a fresh mindset and attitude.

If you got the keyway set screw, go 90 degrees and drill a NEW hole for the 2nd set screw!! Then you have a new hole to break a tap in!! LOL :biggrin2: