Help with timing.
 

Hey guys I could REALLY use some help.
Last summer I had the k321 in my 147 rebuilt, and it ran great after I got it back and learned how to get it timed and the carb set. I had no problems once it was dialed in and it started on the second or third crank, basically right away. I did run it once a month or so during the winter pulling the log splitter around and again no problems. This spring I get it out and start mowing and 10 minutes in it stumbled, slowed down and died. So after cranking a few minutes it ran but the timing was off. So I fiddled with the timing for a week or two and ended up getting a new plug, wire, coil, and pointslayer ignition from Dave Kirk. I thought that would fix the issue but it didn't. I get it all in and she just wouldn't run like before. Checked battery, grounds etc, I also put a new wiring harness in last year with a rebuilt s/g. So I had my friend crank it over while I adjusted the timing and it started running. So I checked with the timing light and I don't see the st timing mark I see dc. No matter what I do that's the result. When set staticly it backfired thru the carb like mad at st. So I thought the flywheel key was busted and I took the motor out, sure enough its fine. Could it be the valves? I'm really not sure where else to look.

Thanks guys.
Curt

Sounds like your exhaust valve is getting hot and sticking. But first you need to set your timing with a Ohm meter. If you need to know how to do that, look around here for one of Matt G.'s postings and check his profile for a link to his web page. It has detailed instructions on how to set the timing properly. after that, start running some Marvel's Mystery Oil in the oil and gas. That will help free up the valve.

AJ

I did set it using Matt's timing method, I should have specified that. Problem is when doing that all I get is backfiring thru the carb. If I use that method and set it to dc rather than the st timing mark it'll run, but not well. Does MMO usually work or would it be time better spent taking the valve out and cleaning it?

I feel your pain :)

I've gone through and timed and re-timed my K301a per Matt's Static Timing method using a DVOM, set it dead on with the 20 deg BTDC 'S' mark. If the tractor is cold it will just backfire on the compression stroke, won't ever get itself going. Warm, it may eventually get running. At that point I checked point gap, when it's set "right" it's about .019 -.020. So, I closed the gap in .005 increments, first .015, then .010, and finally got the engine to run at .008. Yes, its a small gap. I actually got the tractor to run once with it set "right" at the 'S', but it knocked quite a bit, especially under a load, even at WOT I could hear it, so brought it back in and put it where it likes to be - at .008. At that point it is much closer to actual TDC, but that's what my old Kohler likes. I went through everything - carb, valves, battery, points, coil....and for some reason this engine just doesn't like to be set the way most people say is correct.

I know some others have had the same results as I, although the majority of forum users here disagree. Just thought I'd give you a heads up. I know that your engine is in much better shape than mine, and I attribute part of my need for late ignition timing to engine wear on a 40 yr old K301a.

When I first tried this Static Timing method months ago I thought I was doing it wrong because of my inexperience in this area. After several months of tinkering and getting a good handle on this engine, I now know that on this particular engine, Matt's method does not work.

If it runs, but not well, as you say, at the DC mark I'd check your valve clearances. When I checked mine they were just a hair too tight, which cause a loss in compression from the valves not completely seating. It didn't affect where I time the engine, however. I think you may have more than one issue causing your problem here.

I used parts method and it didn't work for me either. Mused a dial industry and set them just all they were starting to close and it runs great now. Jeff

Once again... I have the same problem and have seen other similar posts with the same problem. Honestly, I had to bend my points bracket back to get the static timing in range of the adjustment slot. I still am running it this way. It starts up like a showroom new tractor, and runs cool. It is happy, Im happy, go with it. The timing procedure works. No question. Mechanically there is something commonly wrong in these engines.

I think I would try a new points push rod. The originals are aluminum and wear short. New one are made of steel. Just a thought.

ccr147-

There is no 'ST' or 'DC' marks...there will be a 'T' for top dead center, and 'S' or 'SP' for spark point. You use the 'S' or 'SP' mark to time the engine.

Here's another thing...if you are using a cheap digital multimeter, the meter's sample rate is extremely low, so you'll need to turn the flywheel VERY slowly or you'll miss the mark and have it timed wrong. The older analog types actually work better, as the needle fluctuates almost immediately.

jeffscub-

'dial industry'...you mean 'dial indicator'? If you set them as they were starting to close, with a dial indicator, and the engine runs, there is something really messed up with your engine. That doesn't make any sense at all. The points will create a spark when they open, not close.

[QUOTE=Matt G.;81733]ccr147-

Here's another thing...if you are using a cheap digital multimeter, the meter's sample rate is extremely low, so you'll need to turn the flywheel VERY slowly or you'll miss the mark and have it timed wrong. The older analog types actually work better, as the needle fluctuates almost immediately.

I found this out the hard way. I got my dad's analog meter and it worked much better and I like turning the flywheel very very slowly to get it dead on.

I always do all my testing by repeatability. It may hit right one time, not the next. When I find that point where it is same across board, thats it.

yes, i meant to write dial indicator, (i have a new phone). the points were gapped at the point where the rod was at the fartherest distance out of the motor. sorry for the typo. and i should have read my notes better before opening my mouth about where i gapped the points. i apologize. jeff

I assumed it was a timing mark I wasn't familiar with, but the original post made sense - a mark for the timing, a mark for TDC.

I wonder...what is commonly wrong in these engines that is causing this discrepancy? Maybe it is that push rod, I'll look into that as well.

And maybe an analog voltmeter works better, but I've not had a problem getting the points to open dead on with the S mark using my decent DVOM. My engine just doesn't want it set there. I hear knocking, see excess exhaust fumes and know it isn't right, no matter what it "should" be. I'm happy, Cub's happy. :) It's not that I doubt that Matt's method is correct, I just know that in my particular application it doesn't fly.

Valve adjustment did fix the slight miss after warmup, though - I should note that. Intake was too tight by several thousandths, exhaust was too tight by just a hair. Feels like all I do is fix previous owner's "fixes"....

So yeah, I'd check valve clearances too - after breaking in the engine it'd be a good idea anyway.

So I pulled the motor and checked the keyway and the valves. Key was fine, the intake valve was about .002 to tight. Still didn't fix the issue. The flywheel definatly has a dc mark and an st which could be sp its a little worn. Anyways it'll only run on the dc mark. It runs better but not perfect. So it still drops in rpm and stalls if u put a load on the engine and hunts when u try to rev it back up so I thought ill reset the governor. Loosened the bolt start to turn the shaft and snap! I could hear something fall down to the oil pan. Not good.

Is this going to be a big pain to replace the gear and cross shaft?

Curt

Sounds like the cross shaft tab broke off. Better that it did this now then when the motor was running and break the rod.

The Cross Shaft and governor gear are the "first" things to be put into a motor and the last things to come out due to their location. It's not a really bad job to break the engine down to get to them tho. If you get in that far, I would replace the governor gear, and put a new cross shaft and cross shaft bushing back in.

Download the Kohler service manual located in the Tractor Technical library. It will show you how to disassemble the motor and the governor gear location.

Here is a pic of my 12hp motor with the new gear installed.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...r/DSC01897.jpg

Ouch. I'm got a K301 sitting in the shed with that very problem (cross shaft tab). Since that was the first part I put in when I rebuilt my current K301, I figured it would just become a "buildable block". The rest is in really good shape I think.

On the timing issue, I have a set of points that just won't work with my engine. I think they might be Chevy points. They just won't open far enough IIRC. Bought from someone I will never buy parts from again.

Yeah this really ticked me off, I don't even have 30 hours on the engine yet. Hopefully she'll come apart and go back together again quickly. I'd like to get it done this weekend, but we'll see. I wish I had the time to engineer an electronic adjustable rev limiter for the engine. I really like the pointslayer electronic ignition module I put on it sure would be nice to expand upon that.