Dave's 1650 Project
 

A brief introduction:

This is my first tractor. When I decided I wanted to get a tractor, I started shopping the basic $300-400 tractors on Craigslist. I would have probably wound up with some variation of an MTD product.

But as I shopped, I'd check forums such as OCC to learn about what I was looking at. Then I came across the restoration threads, and I was inspired.

I've always been pretty good with a wrench, but for the last few decades I've kind of backed off from my mechanical work. Got busy in the corporate world, paid for the work on my cars, etc.

My interest in wrenching has been rekindled, and I started thinking I couldn't settle for a stamped-tin tractor. So I started looking for a project.

At first, I was looking at the JD's. Mostly because they're so ubiquitous. But then I came across a Cub Cadet 1250 in my shopping, and even though I didn't buy it (probably should have) the Cub's became a fascination with me. As I continued reading, I determined that a 1450 or 1650 would be my ideal project tractor.

Then I found this 1650 on Craigslist. No pictures, but the ad said it was complete, had spark, turned over, but needed work. It was listed at $400.

I traveled 1.5 hrs to see it, and was surprised to find my destination at a salvage yard. Someone had junked this great tractor. I was able to pick it up for $300.

http://www.michiganmartins.net/image.../DSCN1911a.jpg

This restoration thread is to share my journey in the project, and to ask questions and learn from the vast experience of the members. You'll see that I'm a complete noob at many things, but I'm resourceful. :) If I get good instruction, I can do it.

I'll be interested in all the help and advice I can get, so let's get started!

welcome aboard Dave! Looks like a great starting point for a restoration!

:American Flag 1:

My 3 year old Assistant Mechanic, Ryan, is ready to go. He was actually part of my reason to start this project. You can't raise a kid that doesn't know how to work on his own stuff. :)


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So the mechanic dude at the salvage yard told me that he had fired it up with starting fluid, and that it was shooting fire out the exhaust. Stuck exhaust valve, he figured.

The left side footrest had been damaged by a forklift at the salvage yard.

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Here's the control panel:


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And the hour meter. I'm reading just over 360. It was manufactured in January 1978 according to the S/N, and I think it's been sitting somewhere for quite a while, so this is probably about it. I'm not thinking it's rolled over: (edit 7/9/2011 - I now think its pretty certain that it was rolled over, as I dug into the project and learned more.)

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Now the ugly part - the deck. No rust through, except for the belt cover, but it's got a lot of rust underneath, and the center spindle is frozen. With luck, it's just the pulley rusted to the deck and the bearings are fine. The other two seem solid:

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Good looking tractor Dave. You've come to the right place when it comes to a great group who knows their Cub's.
They've helped me out so much in the last year. They are a world of knowledge, and a pretty good bunch:beerchug:

So I decided to tear into that deck first. Pulled off the cover and found a mess inside:

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Got that cleaned up a little:

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Removing these hangers presented a problem. Once I got them loosened up a little, the carriage bolt wanted to start spinning in its hole. That can't be good. So I found I could grab them with the tips of a vise-grip and hold them while I got the rusty nuts off.

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Then it came down to the spindles. I didn't have big enough wrenches to break these nuts. Standard 1/2" drive sockets and an adjustable wrench wouldn't do the trick. The blades were junk anyway, so I decided to break out the side grinder with a cutting wheel. I wanted to get that frozen center spindle out first. So I cut the blade off so I could get it through the hole, then cut the nuts off the spindle mount. Here it is after surgery:

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I needs more tools. So today I went to my Dad's shed (he passed away last year) and picked up his 6" vise, as well as some bigger wrenches. Once I get this vise mounted, I'll be able to clamp this spindle in and torque on it.

I'm considering picking up a sandblaster. It's something I've never done but have wanted to learn. But I called a local pro the other day and he said $40 for a mower deck. I think I might take it to him, and maybe acquire a small sandblaster for myself for the smaller stuff. Although, I've taken keen interest in the threads I've read about electrolytic cleaning. I picked up some metal rod from Dad's shed to build one. I'll experiment with it a little and post the progress here.

Welcome to OCC Dave. You have a great looking 1650 that I am sure is going to be top notch in no time at all. Looking forward to your future posts and pics. Check out our technical library for service manuals and Kohler engine manual. For reference your 1650 is called a Quiet Line series or QL. It is a wide frame which makes it quite easy to work on. Feel free to ask questions.

:Welcome2:


Great looking 1650!


Nice find! :ThumbsUp:

:Welcome2: Dave! Congrats on your 1650! :beerchug:

Next step was to go after that stuck valve issue and to rebuild the carburetor. So I pulled off the hood and grill assembly:

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Found a mouse nest between the muffler and the fans, as well as leaves. Can you say FIRE?

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Carb is off. I'm 99% certain I'm going to have problems getting that linkage back together. :bash2:

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Popped the cylinder head, this is a shot at the underside of it:

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You can see exhaust valve stuck open. I tapped it down with a rubber mallet, turned the crank and it stuck again. Repeated 3-4 times, and it started functioning on its own.

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Here's a look inside. The cylinder walls actually look great. The picture makes it look bad because it's reflecting the carbon on the piston:

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I started cleaning the top of the piston. This is my first time here, so I started with a rag and gas. Then I moved up to fine steel wool with gas. This is a picture of it half-cleaned. I did more and got it looking pretty good. Then I started reading and found that oven cleaner works well. I'm going to get some of that to tackle the valves.

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Here's a view of the valves. I *think* they look pretty good, but again I'm a noob on this stuff. Once I get the valves and the seats cleaned up, I'll have a better idea.

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BTW, I got tripped up on watching that exhaust valve as I spun the crank. It goes up all the way one cycle, then up just a little on the next. Then I had an "a-ha" moment when I remembered reading about the compression relief they built into these Kohlers to make starting easier. That's the little open I'm seeing, right? (edit 7/18/11 - yep, it was the compression relief)


One more pic of the underside of the head, partially cleaned:

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After I get these valves and such cleaned, clean and rebuild the carb, the new head gasket (on order) should be here in a few days. We'll put the motor back together, change the oil, and fire it up. Fingers crossed... (edit 7/18/11 - never did put it together and start it up. As you'll see later, I went on to a full rebuild)

But I won't be putting the tractor back together at that point. Next step is to pull the motor and go to work on those ISO mounts. I'm going to do the crossbar mod while I'm in there.

Thanks guys, for the welcomes and the vote of confidence in my purchase! I had been scouring Craigslist for a month, even to the point where I sat up RSS feeds and employed a reader to keep me up to date every five minutes. So when I saw this one, I was pretty sure I had found my tractor.

DX3, thanks to all the great info I've read here, I already sourced both the owners and technical service manuals for the tractor and the K341. That's my style, read first, wrench second. :) Lots of sites trying to charge $10-$20 for the Cub Cadet manuals, but with a little digging I found them free.

BTW, I keep getting Google hits on a site that looked like it had great material, but the site was always down. I think it was called "IHresource.com" or something like that. I'm sure you guys are familiar with it. Is it defunct?

Dave :Welcome2:

Don't worry about any other site we've got your back! Sweet looking 1650! Your heading in the right direction with your work! If you can't repair that foot rest you can swap out the fender pan and you'll be set.

Thank you for all the pics! We love pics!

Well, were not done with the welcome yet! Nice score on the International Harvester model 1650! Yup, like flys to manure, folks flock to the name JD! You have chosen wisely! Welcome to Only Cub Cadets!

Yeah, before I even bought a tractor I loved reading the restore threads with lots of pics, so I'll try to keep it going. It's hard to think about grabbing the camera when you're knee deep in something, and then there's the "greasing the camera" issue.

I talked to the salvage guy who sold me the tractor today. He has an 1100 parting out that has a better fender pan on it, although it would need some reshaping to the right rear fender. He said he'd sell it to me for $25, so that's not bad.

I'll see if I can get this one back in shape. That's one of the reasons I wanted to take this project, to challenge myself to things I haven't done a lot of - like reshaping metal. I used to watch a lot of "Trucks" when Stacy did it, and it interested me in such things.

I was happy to find one with the side panels. The 1250 I looked at before didn't have them, and the more I read, the more I realize how lucky I am to get them.

I wonder what was up with the previous owner and that black paint on the rear wheels. Well, heck - worse yet - what's he doing sending this tractor to the scrap yard? Wish I would have met him before he did, I'd have offered him a case of beer or something. :)

Welcome to the forum, it looks like you are off to a great start!

A couple of tips- a razor blade works good for cleaning the top of the piston and combustion chamber as long as you are careful not to scratch the piston. You can use a small wire wheel in an electric drill to clean the valves as long as you stay away from the piston, as you'll scratch that in a hurry. Be sure to completely remove oven cleaner from anything you touch with that, as it is rather corrosive, particularly to aluminum. If you visit the 'how-to' section of my website (link is in my signature line) there are a few documents you may find helpful since this is your first Cub Cadet.

Also, that deck probably has some rust holes you can't see yet if you haven't separated the stiffener plate from the deck shell. The stiffener plate was assembled to the deck before painting from the factory, so any water trapped between the two rusts the deck really bad. You'll probably find some holes to weld up when you get it sandblasted. An electric or pneumatic impact wrench is the way to remove the spindle nuts. A torch is also very helpful for the smaller ones; if you heat the nuts to a dull red, they'll typically spin off easily.

1650
 

Hi Dave,

i'm a nube also , your 1650 caught my eye. Your gonna love that machine

From one QL to another

:beerchug:

B.

You got that at Regals where I work.I am not at the main yard anymore or else it would be sitting at my house . I am glad you got it , but I am alittle burned up at Buddy and John cause they know I collect them , I guess coming in on sundays to service their loaders really paid off so they wouldn't be down during the week really paid off . congrats Dave nothing against you I hope it looks sweat when it is done

Matt G. - Thanks, good info. I have read and saved your head gasket replacement PDF, and I have the carb rebuild one open. This will be helpful stuff!

Today, I was running a wheel on the top of the valves, and it bumped over and "scuffed" the top of the piston. I was thinking it's no big deal, but now reading what you wrote I'm a little paranoid. There'll be some pics in my update to follow, see what you think.

I also have some questions regarding the valve cleaning, hopefully you can comment on the post forthcoming.

I imagine you're probably right about the deck. We'll see how it looks after sandblasting.

Thanks for the tips, and good job on the site!

Ah yeah, I read your thread. Great restore job for a "noob" :) I wish you would have posted all thru the process, I could have learned from you. Ah well, do it on your next tractor. There's another Cub out there waiting for your excellent work.

Ha! You're right Matt. I didn't even remember the name of the place until you reminded me. John and George have been pretty cool with me. I stopped back by the other day to see if George had sat the air cleaner cover aside, 'cause it's missing. No luck. Now I've got to source one of those.

Sorry you missed out on this one, but I hope you enjoy following my work and help out when you can.

I may have one I will look tomorow

Got a few hours in on the 1650 today. First I used the oven cleaner on the top of the piston, the valves, and the head:

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Cleaning the top if the valves was a lot easier than getting to the underside of them. I soaked a cloth with oven cleaner, wrapped it around the underside, and let it sit for a while, then buffed the underside with the rag.

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Seats are looking much better:

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Here's the topside as I stand. I think that's going to be good enough:

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Although the underside of the exhaust valve isn't going to come as clean as the intake valve. I'm wondering if I should just pull them and give them a more thorough cleaning (?)
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I felt in the mood to do a little painting, so I figured the engine tins were a good candidate. Scrubbed them all down in the laundry sink, sanded them with a couple high-grit sandpapers, and shot them with Rustoleum gloss black engine paint;

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Also, getting ready to put the motor back together in the next few days (when the head gasket comes in) so I thought I'd get it ready to start up. The choke assembly was really sticky, so I removed it, pulled the wire out of the sleeve, and rubbed the choke shaft and wire with steel wool. Then I greased up the wire and shaft and put it back in place. Moves nicely now.

Adjusting the valves. I thought I'd post a few pics for my fellow noobs on this, since the pictures in the Technical Service Manual you get from Kohler are horrible.


Here's a picture inside the valve cover. I drew a red line across the gaps, where you'll measure your valve clearances.

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Insert the feeler gauge into that gap (look up the specs for your engine in the Kohler service manual.)

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You'll put a 1/2" wrench on the lower unit (it spins freely) and a 7/16" on the nut. Turn the nut to close or open the gap.

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For my K341, the intake valve clearance is spec'd at .008" / .010", so I got to the point where the .010 went in just a tad snug, and the .008 passed through easy. I figure I was hitting just about .009 this way.

As a learning curve item, I checked my clearances before I cleaned the underside of the valves and the seats. The intake was easily over .020" (target .009") and the exhaust was over .030" (target .018".)

It's not time to make adjustments until you complete that cleaning. The carbon on the underside of the valve and in the seat is what's giving you this higher clearance. Clean it first, then gauge and adjust.

I think I was getting close to .010" of clearance just from the carbon buildup.

Use care when using the oven cleaner....it likes to eat paint just as much as it does carbon deposits! It did a great job cleaning your top end and valves!

It also likes to eat skin. I was wearing shorts and sprayed the head down while holding it over my legs. A few minutes later, my legs started with a mild burning itch.

Then I read the can. Ha. Had to go in and wash it off with some soap. :)

While I was cleaning up that choke cable, I checked out the other controls. Basically, the choke and the throttle are the only things working.

The forward/reverse control is stuck at neutral. It doesn't budge. I've got to look into what's going on there. Any thoughts? (edit 7/18/11 - you'll see later that the trunnion plates at the back end were frozen solid - apparently a pretty common problem)

The lever for the hydraulic lift moves back and forth freely, but does not move the piston on the hydraulics. I think I see a collar with a hex head screw on it in there that may need to be tightened. (edit 7/18/11 - it turns out it did actually engage the lift, but there was about three inches of lever play from top to bottom before it engaged. I'll have to figure out if this is normal, or how to correct it)

The toggle switch for the front PTO is frozen in place. Have to take that apart and see what's up. I think I may replace it with a nice rocker switch anyway. Hope that whole electric PTO thing works...

Great write up on the valves and the pics are awesome!

what part of MI do you live in ?

If you are in there that far I would get some valve grinding compound and grind both valves so you for sure don't have to get in there again. You will also have to re-adjust the valves again after that.

That spot on the piston isn't good, but as long as it doesn't go all the way down to the ring I wouldn't worry too much at the moment. I would put some oil between the piston and bore to make sure any oven cleaner that got down there doesn't cause any problems. I would also recommend cleaning the cooling fins on the cylinder after you get the engine bolted back together; I see a bunch of crap in the fins in the pics of your valve adjustments. If you haven't already, I'd remove the flywheel shroud and clean the fins on that side, and remove any grass/mouse debris that might be in there.

The PTO switch has a safety interlock so you can't turn the tractor on if the PTO is on. If you don't want to lose that functionality you'll need the correct replacement switch, which is only about $30 IIRC.

The F/R control is probably just rusted stuck from sitting. There's a big nut on one side of the dash tower that is on the F/R shaft. Loosen that all the way; it should either come loose by doing that, or come loose easier.

I would also recommend making a brace for the muffler, as it'll crack/break the aluminum muffler box if it hasn't already.
http://onlycubcadets.net/forum/attac...9&d=1301855572

I'm in Grand Rapids. Most of my family is in Lansing, so I get over there quite often.

eek - grinding valves...sounds a little scary to me. I used to own a precision turning company, so I'm a little leery of taking a relatively precise angle on a round piece of metal to a grinding wheel. I think I lack the right tools for such a job. Maybe I should take them to someone local to have them done, but if I did, shouldn't the seats be ground to match as well?

I think that spot you're talking about in the piston is its identifying notch. I read that it was manufactured that way, to designate that side toward the flywheel. I certainly didn't do that in my cleaning! :) In fact, the little spot I hit with the wheel is really not even visible in the pics. I stopped sweating that 30 seconds after I mentioned it...

I have been cleaning out the fins since that picture. Shortly after I get it put back together for a test run, the motor's coming all the way out, so I'll really clean it then.

What's the best way to clean up those fins anyway? Can you get them back to smooth and shiny (vs rusty and ugly?)

Good advice on the controls and muffler brace. I'll fabricate one for it. I don't think that aluminum was cracked, but I'll take a look at it.

Thanks Matt G!

And thanks for the compliment Methos. I try to be thorough because the instructional stuff with pics has been so helpful for me.

That isn't quite what I meant. No power tools are necessary- use valve grinding compound. Remove the keepers and springs, pull the valve out, put some of the valve grinding compound on the sealing surface of the valve (making absolutely certain you don't get any at all on the stem or in the guide) and then put it back in place. Rotate it back and forth through 90 degrees a few times while applying light downward pressure, turn it one direction 90 degrees, then back and forth again, then rotate it another 90 degrees, etc until you've gone all the way around in a circle. (If that's confusing let me know and I'll try again) Pull the valve back out, clean off all of the valve grinding compound with a rag. If you have a uniform shiny circle on both the valve and the seat, you're done- clean off any remaining valve grinding compound with a rag and mineral spirits, and re-lube the valve stem. Once again, make sure you didn't get any valve grinding compound on the stem or in the guide, or you'll need new valves and guides in a hurry. Do that to both valves, reset the valve lash, and you'll be all set.

What I usually do to clean my engines is use degreaser and a water hose, putty knife, brush, etc. after removing all tinwork and duct-taping over the carb, exhaust, and breather so I don't get water in the engine, and then I just scrub it until I'm satisfied with its cleanliness. You can also pressure wash it if you are careful to stay away from crank seals, the breather, and anything electrical. You are pretty much stuck with the rust; if you were to get it down to shiny metal, it would rust again in a hurry from the heat generated by the engine when it is running. As long as you get the dirt and grease out of there, everything will be fine. Bare iron would transfer heat the best, but it won't stay bare, so you'll just have to live with the rust, or clean it all off and paint it with high-temp paint, which would probably be hard unless you tore the motor completely down and had the block hot-tanked or something. Anything is better for cooling that dirt mixed with cooked-on oil, so whatever cleaning you can do will be an improvement, nonetheless.

Ah, yeah. I did read about that valve procedure Matt (probably on your site.) :) I think I'll do it, since I want to pull those valves out and clean a little more anyway.

I'm going to pick up a good brush to get into those fins tomorrow. I can't think of anything I have that would be suitable.

Just realized I never got a pic of the head after the oven cleaner. I let it soak for 20 minutes or so, then scrubbed again with a little fine steel wool. I still have some work to do on the gasket surfaces, including the glass / sandpaper bit.

Here's a before and after to remember how it looked when I took it off:

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Today I worked mostly on tins and brackets, not a lot that's interesting to report there. However, I did want to pass on this one little tip. I started cleaning them up with this flap wheel disc on my 3/8" drill.

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It's just fantastic for this stuff. Very fast, not too harsh. They clean off all the grime, and will remove rust and paint if you work it a little more. You can hold a part in one hand and clean with the other, and it's not going to rip you up if you bump your hand.

As you can see, mine's pretty worn out, so I'll pick up a new one tomorrow. Here's the gas tank brackets, one before cleaning, the other after hitting it with the wheel. It only takes a few minutes:

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Great Idea on the flap wheel. What grit are you using?

I had it sitting in the toolbox and didn't check it before I wore it down, but I know it's a higher grit, probably in the 300-400 range. It even did a great job stripping away gummy sticky stuff, like the residue from rubber trim.

Think I need to stock up on some of those for when I do my deck. Thanks.

OK, so I need to get a valve spring compressing tool. Looking around on the web, I see two different styles. I'll call them "scissor" and "c-clamp." Check out the pics;

C-Clamp:

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Scissor:

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Anyone have experience working with both of these? My initial impression is that the scissor style looks like it's much easier to work with since you don't have to have that clamp slipping around. Plus, the scissor style holds the whole thing together while you reassemble it. Thoughts?

Darn the expenses...

I actually like the C clamp myself but I used the bottom style on my 128 this time around. with the C clamp your place the flat end on top of the valve and the lower jars up under the keeper retainer cup. Adjust the clamp down till the keepers are visible and are able to be removed. It works just like vice grips. Adjust tension and squeeze handle closed to lock in place. Adjust till you get it just right.

With the scissor style slide one jaw up high on the spring and the lower jaw under the keeper retainer cup. Close it and remover the keepers. Just be careful is and when it slips off :biggrin2:.

On a side note, a $5 door spring compressor at your local auto parts store works just as good. Is what my spring compressor is.

Hope this makes some sense?