1862 question
 

i have just purchased a well used(1700hrs) 1862 for $150. it was not running at time of purchase, brought home- no spark. stole a coil from one of my spare m-18.
fired right up, very little smoke.does have a semi-stripped out heli-coil on one head. seems to move well, no creep. question i have is can i transfer my tiller set-up from my 1450 over to the 1862 and be cost effective. the 1862 has no hitch. also i have very little knowledge on these newer cubs. what problems should i look for to determine if i should invest any time or money into it? i do have 2 m-18's that run well, if i need to replace. thank- you

:Welcome2:

Sounds like you got a pretty good deal! If your 1450 and 1862 are the same size the tiller could be mounted on it but you'll have to do something about the alum. rear end. The tiller would pull the bolts right out of the axle housing unless you put a cast iron rear end in there. I'm not 100% sure that it could be done but with everything with the know how, tools or the cash anything can be done. It would be a custom setup for sure. If it was me I'd keep using the 1450 for tilling duties. I can see desire of using the 1862 with power steering and tilt steering wheel you could sit and till all day long with out using very much energy.

:WWP:

I would leave the tiller on the 1450.
Alot of work to make the 1862 tiller ready.
On top of what duke said you would need a three point hitch set up and pulley changes as well.

I don't know why everyone tries to scare people into thinking the aluminum rear ends are weak and cannot handle any kind of work load. I have never heard of anyone pulling the bolts out of the rear. I am not saying it has not been done, but I would bet if it has they were doing something they should not have been doing or the bolts were not tight.

I did some looking and figuring and this is what I found.

Fastener = 3/8-16 x.750. Using about .500

A 3/8-16 thread internal thread has around a .03392 shear area at .500 of use. I don't know the specs for the housing, so I used the lowest aluminum tensile strength of 26000 psi for this figure.

.03392 x 26000 = 881.92 psi per bolt, x 5 bolts = 4409.60 psi on only the bolts themselves would be needed to pull (strip) the threads out of the aluminum housing.

I understand that these numbers are not exact as I don't know the exact specs on the housing. But you can see that someone would have a very difficult time pulling the 5 bolts out under normal use. A person would have to be pulling more than 2 tons, that is more than you can legally haul in the bed of most pickups.

I can however see problems occurring if the bolts are not tight. But that is a another story.

I have a no. 2 tiller on the back of my 1864 (same tractor only with a command engine) and never had a problem with pulling the bolts out. The sleeve hitch off the 1450 will work with the 1862, you wll need the Frankenstein bolts to use it. I would change the pull on the gear box to the wider belt. The 1862 will be a better tractor to use than the 1450.

So when you going to hook a tiller up to a alum rear end and prove your point? I sure don't feel like telling someone that they will not have problems when I feel other wise. There's a reason why xtreme motor works and others put side tabs on their products. My gut feeling is that it's not for looks.:biggrin2:

http://www.xtrememotorworks.com/Part...CC-03-001M.htm

http://www.xtrememotorworks.com/Part.../CC-29-010.htm

Not to start an argument here but the the numbers do not lie, nor was Extreme involved in the design of the aluminum rear end.

No offense to Extreme's stuff but, just because someone over builds a part for (extreme) use, does not mean that the stock part will not work for normal use.

Not take it as a argument but there's a reason why the gear box tillers were never used on a alum rear end. I have not heard of anyone using a tiller gear box on an alum rear end if you have please share with us. As you and I both wasn't part of the design team I guess neither one of us has a leg to stand on.:beer2:

Maybe there's someone that has done it and would like to share their experence with us.

Perhaps the above poster could share their experience with us.

Got pics? How long have you been using this setup?

:WWP:

That would help!:beerchug:

Just a thought, cub cadet did offer a mounting adapter for the 400 (I think) 8hp self powered tiller, so it could be used with a sleeve hitch on the aluminum rears. I don't really see what the difference would be. I actually think the 400 would bounce,shake and put more stress on the rear end than a solid mounted gear box.

http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=c...2FSleeve+Hitch

:bigthink:

Tiller
 

I bought the Tiller new, when I bought my new 1811. The CC 1811 had a 3 point and I could never find the parts to use the tiller on the CC 1811 with a 3 point. The tiller just sat in the machine shed. When I bought the CC 1864 new it did not have a 3 point, I decided to put the tiller on it. I bought a sleeve hitch from a CC 782 and used that for the lift. I had to drill new holes to match the aluminum rear end, (because the plate was drill for the cast rear end). The CC 1864 was used around 150 hours about half mowing and half tilling, since that time tilling is all the CC 1864 has been used for. It now has 640 hours on it. So I would say around 500 ??? hours the tiller has been on the CC 1864. (some time is just idling around) 400 hours for sure. The tractor/tiller is at Mom's now because I don't use it as much now that I has a CC 442 tiller on a CC 2084. She and a couple of her friends have big gardens and Mom does not like weeding. (She is 80 years old) Don't tell Her I told you. One of Her friends that also has a big garden is 92 years old, you would think both of them were 60 years old. I just hope I'm that active when I'm 80. They plant their rows far enough apart that the tiller will fit down the row. I will get some picture when I go to Moms. But I will assure you a 1 or 2 tiller can be use on the back or an aluminum rear end safely.

Tiller
 

Is that the number of the rear mount tiller that fit a 3 point and had a Briggs motor??
My old neighbor had one like that and it would jump all over the place if he was tilling had ground. He had it on the back of a 1812. He bought it because he did not want to remove the mower deck to till??
The deck was a pain in the rear when he was trying to till.
I don't know what happen to it when he passed away.

Looking forward to your pics. Any other changes you had to make?

Tiller
 

I always want to find the kit to put the no. 2 tiller on the back of a tractor with a three point. It doesn't look hard to build I just don't have the time. I want to buy another no. 2 tiller to put on a late 782 for the kids to till with. The 782 has a 3 point on it and that is why I,m looking for the kit. I'll probably do like I did with the 1864 and remove the three point and use a sleeve hitch to lift it.

I have a few issues with your calculations. For starters, the threads will fail in shear, not tension, so you cannot use the tensile strength for this calculation; you must use the shear strength. Without knowing the alloy I'd want to assume a fairly conservative value of 11,000 psi. Multiplying that by the area you came up with (which I'm not going to try to verify at the moment) results in a force of about 430 lb (not psi) per bolt or using all 5, about 2150 lb. Now, that 11,000 psi shear strength is ultimate shear strength, as in the shear stress at which the material breaks. The yield shear stress (where permanent deformation occurs) is probably 50-60% of the ultimate shear strength, so that'll bring our load down to 1075 lb, as we don't want yielding to occur, either. Throw a factor of safety on there (I'd say a minimum of 2 for this, I imagine farm equipment is designed to at least that, but I don't know for sure) and we're down to just over 500 lbs. Something neither of us has taken into account is the preload on the threads from the bolt torque, so there is already a fairly substantial shear stress in the threads just from the bolt torque.

Something else you are not considering is fatigue. If this was a constant, steady load being applied, this could be okay, but the load varies with time, which will eventually cause failure of the part, even if the stresses are less than the yield strength of the material. This is why the aluminum connecting rods eventually break in our engines.

This is why I believe the threads can be damaged in the aluminum rears, why CCC never offered the IH 3-point on the aluminum rear tractors, and why xtrememotorworks has the improved lower 3-point brackets. It is unlikely the tiller will pull the bolts out because the tiller is pushing the tractor, whereas other rear implements may cause problems because they are all being pulled and are pulling on the bolts in the rear.

I'm using my #1 tiller on my aluminum-rear 782D with a Cat-0 hitch and the adapter package that I reverse engineered. I recently finished the whole thing but haven't had a chance to test it. Here are some pictures.

Attachment 12109

Attachment 12110

Attachment 12111

Attachment 12112

To my knowledge, CCC never offered the IH-style 3-point and sleeve hitch adapter for the aluminum rears, so this is likely meant for using this tiller on an older tractor with the IH 3-point and sleeve hitch adapter. The 400 wouldn't put more stress on the rear unless it was heavier...both tillers will bounce and shake and put stress on the rear; just because the gearbox is solidly mounted to the rearend doesn't change anything; the forces from the tiller still go out through the gearbox and into the rear.

Glad to have you back Matt!!:beerchug:

I said in my post that the numbers may not be exact but would be close. Here are some specs I found on cast aluminum. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok...um_alloy_443.0

there are others but this one had the least shear strength at 13,200 psi. My figures were in psi because of the way I figured the contact area of the bolt. Using this formula ,http://www.engineersedge.com/thread_...olt_stress.htm , is how I got my numbers, witch will be different with the new number of 13,200. The amount of contact area per bolt is .38725 sq inch. Using .3331 as the Max, .3643 for the Min, .500 for the length, and 16 threads per inch.

13,200 psi x .38725 sq inch = 5,111.7 lbs x 5 bolts = 25,558.5 lbs

Wow these new numbers are working in my favor.

Now being according to the chart the yield strength is 10,150 psi we only need to reduce the 25,558.5 lbs by about 30% (not 50 - 60 ) we are at 19,660.38 lbs or lets say 20,000 lbs to keep it easy. Then figure in the safety factor of 2 you say, we are still at near 10,000 lbs.

Now one must keep in mind that the whole rearend is only held on with 6 bolts. And they are in aluminum. I have heard of a few having problems when the bolts work loose on the tubes but that is pretty few compared to the total amount of them out there. Some of the these tractors have been working for what around 30 years now. Just think of all the twisting and jarring and banging they have gone through just mowing. Then how about all the snow/dirt plowing, cart/tree/whatever pulling they have seen.

I am not an engineer and don't claim to be one, and these are garden tractors not Airplanes.

Ultimate strength (or yield strength, shear strength, etc) has units of psi or pounds/sq. in. You are multiplying a value in psi by a value in sq. in. (area) so you will get a FORCE in lbs, NOT a stress in psi. And once again, you are using the yield tensile strength that is given in the table, which you'll notice is actually 43% of the ultimate tensile strength. The yield shear strength is not given in that table, but like I said...50-60% (maybe even less) of the ultimate shear strength. You are still overestimating the numbers, and still aren't accounting for the stress that is already there due to bolt preload (more than you think). You aren't an engineer, but you're second-guessing the ones that originally designed this? I know we don't have any of them to consult, but you aren't in a good position to second-guess them.

Also, the six bolts that hold the rear to the frame are in shear, not tension, so the bearing strength of the aluminum (MUCH higher than the shear or tensile strength) is what is important there, not the shear strength. Why would it matter that it isn't an airplane? The engineering principles used are the same regardless of whether it is a tractor, airplane, chair, etc...

If it takes 10 pounds per square inch (psi) to (sheer the aluminum out of thread), and there is 1 inch of contact area on the thread pitch, then theoretically, would it not take 10 pounds of force to pull that thread ?

Then take that 10 pounds of force per square inch (1) and multiply that by the 5 bolts, would that not equal 50 pounds of force needed on those 5 bolts with a total thread pitch contact area of 5 square inches to sheer the threads ?


I am not second guessing the engineers that built the rear end. I am trying to prove that it takes more than people want to admit to pull those threads.

And it does matter what the product is in the end. I have made parts in the tool trade for 20 years. I can show you documentation and over engineering that does happen in the Aerospace and other industries. If I were to make that rear end for the military I would know exactly how much it takes to pull those threads, because we would have to test it and document it. Then it would get X-rayed, thermal tested, stress tested, magna fluxed, and possibly some others on request. That would have to done every X number of parts, not just once. Believe me , I am the person who wrote the programs for and ran the CNC Wires/Rams that made the generator housings for the f-16 , so I know how it works. I seriously doubt CCC had those tests performed.

That there is correct; what you had initially posted had a unit error.

You still are ignoring the fact that the bolts holding that bracket on are torqued (to 360 in-lb as per the manual), and consequently, there is preload in the bolts that will create a large shear stress in the threads, just from reacting the axial preload in the bolt, even when no other load is applied. For a lubricated 3/8" bolt torqued to 360 in-lb, there is an axial load of about 4800 lb. The 5100 lb ultimate shear strength of the bolt holes you calculated is probably reasonable, but you must subtract out the preload, so you're down to 300 lb per fastener or 1500 lb total, and that's taking it all the way to failure. Like I said before, we don't want yield either, so using the yield shear stress instead, and a factor of safety, there isn't much of an allowable load left.

This is supported by the CCC service manual for the 1811, 1872, etc. On page 3-28: "The drawbar bracket is designed to pull only light loads such as utility and garden carts not exceeding a steady pull of 75 lbs." Toss a tiller or 3-point bracket on there and you've got the same problems.

You missed my point before...it does not matter what industry this is in because the engineering principles are the same across the board. You can't ignore the fastener preload because this is a tractor and not an airplane. Things get over-engineered because it is not economically feasible to design every component of everything with the minimum allowable margin of safety.

I was not intentionally ignoring the preload. I just haven't found a workable formula to figure it out yet.

And not to argue what the manual says, but we all know that the hitch bolts will pull more than 75 lbs. I am just guessing but I would say I have easily had a pull load of 700 -800 lbs before. Just your normal small lawn roller would easily be a couple hundred on non level ground. I have personally seen whole 82 series tractor hanging on end by the hitch plate several occasions. That is how a guy I know strips them to part them out.

You didn't account for it...knowing it's there and ignoring it because you don't know how to estimate it isn't a good excuse.

An 800 lb trailer will not have a pull force of 800 lbs. We put wheels on things so they move easier. Under a steady pull that 800 lb trailer probably has a pull force of about 20 lbs. You are comparing apples to oranges- Hanging the tractor by its drawbar is a steady load (and only applied once if the tractor is being parted) and that's not the same as the loads in question. And just because somebody does something doesn't make it a good idea...there's plenty of people that pick up tractors with a forklift and a chain around the steering column, but that's a really bad idea because it ruins the steering column.

That is funny there, I completely understand the difference between what something weighs and it's rolling resistance. I would like to see you pull my lawn cart with 800 pounds in it around my yard with your hands. I bet within the first 5 seconds you will agree that it takes more than 20 pounds of force to move it. And no were did I say the pull force would be equal or even close to what it weighs. Please read my post before telling me what I am comparing.


True hanging a tractor by its hitch is a 1 time load, but then again it only takes once to pull a thread. And according to you the manual states a steady load. Well that is pretty steady if you ask me. And that is an example that we all can relate to. Plus going by the manual recommendations of 75 lbs, hanging one by the hitch would be what at least 7 times the recommended limit.

Tiller
 

I have been successful putting a #2 on an 1862. However, it took some time and fabrication. I was able to find the proper size pulley for the gearbox at tractor supply (they had 2 in stock), and the belt from NAPA. I will try to get some pictures and post later.


Jon

fire2509, pics would be great!
jbollis, thanks for the easily understandable info.
matt, thanks for breaking down the atom

didn't mean to start an argument. i was just trying to get some info.
from the looks of it, it can be done. just might be a little more work than im willing to do. i will not be using the tractor for mowing, as i have a 0 turn. so, the time and effort would be for the tiller only. i would still like to see the pics of fires tiller. might change my mind. i have an opportunity to buy a red 782 diesel, is this the same rear end as the 1862? thanks for the welcome and info.

From the factory it's pretty much the same rear end. You could always put a cast rear in it. They're pretty easy to come by.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that it will have the aluminum rear. Parts tree says so also. http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=c...&dn=0025600008

Just look at the hitch. If there are 3 bolts holding the hitch plate on it is a cast iron rear. If there are 5 bolts then it will be the aluminum one.

I would rather have the diesel though.

If you get the 782D, you will have no choice but to use the Cat-0 hitch, as the fuel tank takes up the space where the cast piece would go on the IH 3-point.

Not to beat a dead horse, but my new 1811 had a the old 1250 tiller setup installed on it 20 years ago with the lower plate attached to the AL transaxle.

Long story short, its not a good setup. It might be OK to run this setup on the AL tranny in good soil but add rocks, stumps and any other inclusions and you will end up with stripped out bolts.

I sold the tiller and fixed the rear end up then installed the cub hitch plate that bolts to the frame. Now I can pull my trac vac (tongue weight 150 when full) without an issue..

Imagine my surprise when I look behind me and see the trac vac with the old bolt on hitch (and bolts) on the ground..

Fun discussion, and great to be on a forum where things get argued back and forth without name calling or worse.

I think one of the factors, maybe backing up Matt's thoughts, is the actual use and how we use these tractors. I generally take good care of my equipment but at the same time I over-stress things all the time. I tow boats with my Cubs all the time, I know it's way beyond the tongue weight and overall weight I should hitch to it, but I've done it for years. I put a snow blade on my 2084, about 10 minutes into plowing I was putting a lot of stress on both the blade and the tractor, using it beyond what might be safe limits. It's human nature to some extent, give us a D-5 dozer and we'll find a way to push it's limits.

So, a drawbar pull is one kind of stress, really fairly steady, increases uphill but not a lot of violent shear stresses. To me tilling is another story, tons of stress up, down, left, right, if you are trying to shear some bolts tilling is a good way to put max stress on them in a variety of directions. So, the safety factor to avoid failure has to be really large, and in my opinion the aluminum rear can't take that stress, I'm not an engineer, just drawing on experience and common sense.

Your right on that!

I know I've learned a lot from this thread. Lots of ideas shared and that's what OCC is about!