I don't really understand what you mean.In my opinion, not rebuild your current engine and buy another engine is throwing money away. The problem with buying another engine is the fact that you don't know what condition the engine is in or what has been done to it. What one person calls "Rebuilt" or "Runs Good" might be totally different than what you think. If you want to try to get away cheap right now, then just tear it down and hone and rering it until you can do a proper rebuild. It might cost you a couple of hundred dollars rebuilding it, but at least you know for sure that it was done right. you see too many times on these forums where someone bought a tractor that "Runs great with no smoke or noises" and come to find out afterwards, the engine was a turd.

AJ

Thanks AJ you definitely have a good point in that the same risk is there with whatever I buy used. Even if I hear it run who knows what could happen in a weeks worth of use.

The engine from the '76 was harder to turn by hand so I kind of assumed it is about locked up. The seller said it had a rod knock, but maybe it was something else like a bad PTO or drive shaft. That tractor only had 3 bolts out of four holding the engine in, and the cradle rails were welded indicating to me that maybe the knock was just the engine bucking around....:bigthink:

I never did anything with it beyond pulling it and putting it in the garage though. Tomorrow I will look at that one a little better and see if it might be in better shape than I thought. If either of them get a rebuild, it will be that one so I can keep mowing in the mean time. Tomorrow is a new day.

To help cut cost a little more on the rebuild, it seems a more and more people are starting to use a aftermarket piston with a kohler rod in their rebuilds. I've seen some people posting about problems with the stens rods, but I've never read about a stens piston failure. That would save you $100 on the rebuild. For some reason, kohler seems to be making their pistons out of exotic metals or something. Or at least I have to assume that with the prices they charge for new pistons these days.

AJ

Been sidetracked from the cub with other less fun things in life but I got out in the garage after work today. I straightened up a bit and pulled the 14 horse kohler out from under the work bench to have another look at it.

I'm beginning to become more confident the "rod knock" the seller was speaking of was an external noise. Reason being the repaired mount rails pictured earlier in the thread, and my latest discovery. The driveshaft coupler at the engine is so worn it is egg shaped and no longer round. I'll bet that was making a pretty nasty noise and the guy just assumed it was internal.

From the oil residue I would say pretty confidently it needs a new front seal as well. I put a socket on the crank and noticed something too, it's nice and easy to turn by hand. I think the hydro pump in the '76 was providing a lot of resistance for some reason, it had to have been as hard as it was to turn when it was connected. I spun the engine over several times by hand with the ratchet and I don't think there is anything wrong with this one internally at all. No noises that I did not feel were perfectly normal. It seems to even release compression like it should, I hear the exhaust valve opening and can feel it get easier to turn. Up to that point, it seems to have great compression. I'm thinking this engine runs too. So now I have to decide what I want to do. I'm leaning towards just running the '78 as is for the time being and keeping an eye on oil level, while doing a quick refresh of the '76 engine with a new seal and gaskets.

I guess the next step is a bench test of the '76 but I am missing some ignition parts at the moment. What are the minimal electric requirements for this to run on a bench test basis? Coil, points, plug and wire? Its missing the coil, voltage regulator and plug wire at the moment. Not that I couldn't use the ones off the '78 for testing real quick.

Not much of a progress update but it's something. Oh, I also ordered the steering upgrade kit from Mr. Mark Hellrung today, finally got a few extra bucks in my paypal account to get that taken care of. Looking forward to that addition to the '78 quite a bit.

here is the driveshaft coupler thing I was talking about, notice how badly wallowed out it is on the left.
http://i.imgur.com/qoiRx.jpg


I got bored last night. Rolled the '78 out and the '76 chassis into the garage. I was tired of looking at the rusty old '76 out in the driveway doing nothing but being ugly so I stripped it down to just about a bare frame.

Pulled the levers, steering and dash as one unit for now to avoid fighting with the steering wheel.
http://i.imgur.com/7mAkH.jpg

Some moron PO made a huge hole in the cowl/dash of my '76, presumably to reach into it with a tool rather than taking 10 minutes to unbolt something. :bash2:
http://i.imgur.com/XeC6P.jpg

As I was tearing it down, it reared up on it's hind legs and wanted to fight.
http://i.imgur.com/5qcJd.jpg

I threw a mean right hook and knocked the fenders clean off it!
http://i.imgur.com/IU7Bh.jpg

Really what happened was I had to lift it up to get one of the bolts out that held the foot rests and fenders on. Got 7 of the 8 out, and the last one stripped the phillips head on me. It's always that last fastener when I work on something. :) Taped off the open lines to the hydro unit. I don't know what was fighting me so much but the hydro spins easily by hand. Tooted some PB blast on the manual release valves to see about getting those free again.


Front axle went bye bye.
http://i.imgur.com/m70EZ.jpg

There was just a bolt shoved through the pivot point with no nut, and the holes had been repaired before with some welds. Looked pretty shoddy to me. Will have to see what that is supposed to look like and see about some more suitable fix.

Frame is a little banged up, rigged up and filthy from over 30 years of abuse. Nothing that cannot be put right though.

http://i.imgur.com/lskXm.jpg

That is where I left off. Took me about 2.5 hours to dismantle it, including packing the parts in a bin neatly and putting the nuts and bolts in a divided container. I don't need to label anything, I have a photographic memory. I've also got a just about identical tractor to compare to if need be. :beerchug:

The hydro fluid in the '76 looked rough compared to the '78.

What am I gonna do with the '76? Stay tuned!

The drive coupling you pictured needs replaced. There is a ball type bushing called a "Self-Aligning Bushing" that goes in the center. The part number you need is 903-0204. They cost around $25. I wouldn't try to use it until you get that replaced. That bushing keeps the driveshaft in line.

AJ

thanks AJ! We are definitely on the same page there, it looks like if it were to get any worse it could have come apart. I don't want that happening when the shaft is spinning 3K RPM between my legs! I still need to bench test this engine yet anyway so time will tell what happens with it. I have no reason to believe it won't run, just curious what may be wrong with it, if anything.

What could do is you could pull the engine out of the 78' Then put the other engine in to test. It might run better then the 78's engine then just leave it in then get the other one rebuilt.

I had thought about doing just that and have had to tell myself to wait a couple times now. Plan is to bench test over the weekend and if it does not smoke throw some crank seals at it real quick, then install to the '78.

I want to cut the grass one more time with the '78 as it sits just to make sure it gets done before I borrow some ignition parts from it's engine to test the '76 mill.

People are already tugging at my strings for weekend plans though so we will see what happens. I am hoping to sell the 12.5 briggs engine out of my old MTD this weekend to free up some cub funds too. Finally had a guy contact me interested in it. He said he would call me tomorrow night on it, that would be nice. Tired of looking at it.

Cut the grass with the '78 this afternoon and it did a nice job. I did notice that the longer I ran it, the more it seemed to lose it's "oomph" though. :( This engine is tired, and leaky. It consumed about a half quart of oil or so just to cut my little patch of a yard. It's not burning much, it's puking it out the front seal.

I'm up right now looking at diagrams and on the thought of picking up some crank seals to put in the '76 engine. I need to get the ball rolling on that mill and get it into the '78 sooner than later is what I am thinking. All it is going to take is one time of me forgetting to add some oil and the 78 engine will be toast. I don't want to see it go out like that. I also don't want to keep dumping oil in it, that is not how I like to do things.

Quick question for any cub guys who may still be awake tonight and in the know. Is it safe to assume Chris Westfall (the vendor above)carries original Kohler parts for these crank seals? I see he has very reasonable pricing on them but I do not want to skimp here and end up with aftermarket stuff that may result in me having to change them more than once. I just see his pricing differs from sites like parts tree. I'd like to give him the sale but bottom line with me is I want good parts for the money, I hate doing things twice.

for the record I am after
KH-47-032-07
KH-47-032-06


thanks in advance, you guys have been great help thus far!

No help on the seals here. But I thought I would add my $.02 on engine rebuild. I have a K341AQS off another brand tractor that smoked real bad and used lots of oil. I tore it down and found the rings were gone. Luckily, the bore was still within specs, so I honed the cylinder, adjusted the valves, and new head gasket. What a transformation. Starts easily and has no smoke. I have ran it about 3-4 hours and no oil usage. I didn't see any use to replace anything else, seals weren't leaking. Sometimes, a complete rebuild is not needed. If your engines are within specs, just replace what is not within. Everyone said my engine would have to be bored, new piston, rod, crank turned, and so on. If it is within spec, why spend money on unneeded parts and repairs. Just my opinion and thought I would share.

Thanks 108Cubber, I knew it would be a long shot on the seal question, I will give him a call later today after I have a couple cups of coffee. If anyone knows, it will be Chris himself. Also thanks for sharing your thoughts about the quick rebuild. Once I get the '78 engine out of the tractor I plan on opening it up and seeing what is going on in there.

The thing about both of these K321s I have is that both are caked with oil residue on the front, which from my best guess has to be coming from the shaft seal behind the PTO. The one in the '78 I am currently using you can see fresh oil coating the old crusted stuff. The '76 engine may not leak as bad as the '78 but I am thinking they are about the same due to the amount of oil stuck to the casings. I'd be a sad camper if I put the '76 engine in there and went through the same amount of oil.

Spoke with Mr. Westfall this evening about the seals, and he says I should not have any issues with them. Pretty much what I figured but I had to ask. Just ordered the crank seals and a new head gasket from his site.

Nice guy to talk with and I truly appreciate the same day response to my inquiry. Good service goes a long way with me. I work directly with customers in my job all day and know it can be a thankless task.

:beerchug:

Little update: Removed the decals from the '76s hood and started sanding down the surface rust. I started off with some 40 grit to knock down the loose and flaky stuff, then wet sanded with 100 grit until it felt smooth to the touch all over. It will need a few very small smears of body filler as a few of the rust spots pitted the hood a bit. I've got some finer paper to wet sand with as well. I am planning on picking up some filler and rust converter primer this weekend. The hood cleaned up pretty nice so far, I'm looking forward to seeing it smoothed out some more and painted.

I wanted to install my steering upgrade with the 605 bearing in the '78 but I decided it would be much easier to get in there to that area when I pull the engine. So that can wait for now.

A couple weeks ago I found a guy selling a 109 complete with deck and snow blade. I had messaged him and asked if he would be willing to separate. At the time, he said he just wanted to sell it all together and had another guy interested in the whole setup. He said if it did not sell in a couple weeks he may consider it, so I left it at that.

Thursday night I noticed the ad was still active on craigslist so I thought it would not hurt to let him know I would still buy the blade. I cannot tell you how much I thought about just buying the whole setup but I don't have room for more cubs right now, and didn't want to spend any more than I needed to. So he agreed to sell me just the plow.

I told him I could come by sometime this morning. I tried to sleep in a little but I was rolling around in bed at 6:30 am trying to go back to sleep without being able to, like a kid waiting for Christmas morning! Finally the time drew near and I put a few bucks in the gas tank of my trusty car and drove about 25 miles, just across the border into Illinois and made my way to his place.

Picked up this 42" IH blade for a very fair price in my opinion, he had it assembled with the linkage but I needed to break it into two pieces to fit it into the trunk. Had to rope the trunk lid down but I got it home without any issues. Stopped off once about half way back home to make sure the rope was holding up.

http://i.imgur.com/wIihr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VUohc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6CUYL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8hYjG.jpg

As you can see, it was set up with some cable lift setup so I will have to order or fabricate a lift rod to use with the hydraulic lift on my 1450. That is no biggie. Question I have though is will this thing mount to my cub as is or do I need some other bracket yet? :bigthink: He said he had it on the 109 at some point and as far as I could see visually his 109 looks just like my 1450 up front. I know the 109 does not have hydraulic lift as his had a handle for the deck to raise and lower.

I was thinking it looks like it may not mate right to my cub and should have asked you guys first, but for the price and as few of these as I see for sale I was not going to let it get out of my sight. You guys following the thread know I have been itching for one!

The guy said he also had tire chains. I wish I had brought a few more bucks, I did not want to ask him to throw them in considering I felt he already flexed on his terms a bit by selling the blade separately. I really could have put the funds towards other things for the 1450 project, it will be a while before we see snow. This was just pretty local and a good deal so I grabbed it without a second thought. If nothing else, if I can't use it I will have no problem selling it for what I paid.


If anyone in the area is looking for a 109 let me know and I can put you in touch with him. He said the engine has been rebuilt not too far into the past and it runs and cuts good. It was all there so far as I could tell and did not look to have any odd previous owner modifications. I told him about this site and he may even list it here in the for sale section, we'll see.


This blade is my cure for the rainy weekend blues. If I am not getting any seat time at least I got to scratch something off the to do/to buy list.

That will hook right up to your 1450 with no issues. Put the undercarriage on first then mount the blade to the carriage. It is a PITA to try and get both mounted, or at least it was for me, even tho I was able to do it eventually. When you decide to take it off. find a 4x4 or 6x4 piece of timber and pull up over it with the blade then lower it down. Make it so you can just pull in and out without having to raise the whole thing to get it to attach. I used a length of yellow chain I found at Tractor Supply and couple of quick chain couplers. They kind that looks like a chain loop with a built in nut that rotates up and down to open or close the coupling. I can't remember what they are called. Think I got about 2 feet of chain.

Here is the link to the blade manual:
http://ccmanuals.info/pdf/Front%2042...l%20Manual.pdf

Awesome thank you as always!

I just came back to report I found a site discussing what this setup fits, I've got a big goofy grin on my face right now. :)
http://www.ytmag.com/gardent/messages/62207.html

Looks like my setup fits a lot of cubs. I did good!

I see a familiar name from around here answered that person, too. You guys are top notch in my book.

Downloading the manual now! :beerchug:

If it gets any colder out I'll have to mount this bad boy sooner than later, lows in the high 30s here for the weekend. Hope it does not frost I have plants in the garden and see the farmers corn coming up already.

Nice blade, you got there! :beerchug:

I made a lift bar for my blade by going to the local hardware store and buying a piece of round stock and 2 clevis pins. I cut the round stock to length and welded the clevis pins to the ends. This way I didn't have to take the rod somewhere and have the 90 degree bends done and then drill the holes in the end. I would tell you what diameter of round stock to buy, but I'm not sure what the diameter is on QL's. Mine was on a x82 tractor.

AJ

Thanks Allen, I was happy to get it, and even happier to find it fits my cub!

AJ, I will probably go raid my buddy's shop and see what kind of stock he has laying around. A lot of the products they make are like pins for heavy chains so I am hoping they will turn me loose with a couple feet of material. If so I can bend it there, tack washers on to keep it in place and drill it for cotter pins. I don't think there is anything wrong with a cable or chain setup, I'd just like it to appear stock.

I tucked the snow blade under the work bench for now, I will play with it later when it gets closer to snow season. I plan on making a new blade edge for it out of flat stock and repainting it to make sure it lasts forever. When I went to get it, I had not seen any pics of it so I was happy to find no rust holes and overall it was in good shape for it's age.

Just put away some lunch, now I will go out to the garage and find something to work on. I hate working in there with the door closed due to the weather, wish this cold and rain would blow away.

Mark just in case you haven't seen it yet. Roland made this great write up on lift rods.

http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4616

Thanks Duke! I didn't even think of elevating the tractor itself a little, I was going to put the plow on and just measure it with the lift arm in the down position. I have some 2x10 lumber left over from a project that will be perfect. I appreciate you guys sharing your tips and tricks, it will work that much better with all the weight of the plow down on the ground and saves me from having to do things twice.

So today I got out in the garage with the intention of tearing into the K321 from the 76. First, I had to clean off my work bench which took what seemed like hours. Slapped the engine up there and got to work. After removing the tins, it was clear it was going to need a lot more than just crank seals. Oil was crusted all down the side with the breather. Taking the breather vent cover off revealed more crusty old oil, lots and lots of it. Around the head gasket, guess what? More thick,dried, crusty oil.

So I pulled the head off. Two of the bolts were so tight I had to use a 2.5' breaker bar and hold the engine against my chest for leverage to break loose. The rest, were barely torqued down and came right apart with a ratchet. Head gasket looked "new".

Now here is where things get interesting. The exhaust valve and surrounding area was crusty, which was the first thing I noticed. Then I shined my light down at the piston. Last I checked, pistons were perfectly round. The one in this engine is egg shaped. :bash2:

Drained what little oil was in it out of the drain plug and pulled the oil pan so I could get at the connecting rod bolts. Those were barely hand tight too. Not sure what the torque specs on those should be but I have never seen connecting rod bolts that loose before.

Pulled the piston out and this is what one side of it looks like which is why it looked so odd when it was in the bore.
http://i.imgur.com/ddWLO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CTYfj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TzeaI.jpg

Looks like a bear was chewing on it.

Is it safe to assume this is an aftermarket piston and connecting rod? No numbers stamped on anything, and just looks like cheap crap. This "T" is all I found.
http://i.imgur.com/ndQV7.jpg

Now you would think with a piston looking like that, the cylinder would look just as bad right? I mean what could have caused that kind of damage to the piston? The bore shines like a mirror, and there is not a single scratch or imperfection that you can feel with a finger or fingernail, it's smooth as glass. The pic makes it look like there may be imperfections but they are all just reflections from my flashlight and the camera's flash.
http://i.imgur.com/dqkMW.jpg

The connecting rod shows some wear as does the crank, from what I can tell it looks like the connecting rod took the most of it.
http://i.imgur.com/VMQsE.jpg

What should I be looking for here? Play at the crank bearings? I just cannot fathom how that piston could look like that without killing the cylinder. I am guessing that something foreign got in the cylinder, got chewed up and spit out but I am open to other thoughts. Glad I decided to pull the head off this one.

I was going to measure the bore but the batteries in my digital caliper are dead.

Piston looks kind of rough, it should be marked on the top if it is oversized. Some are marked in standard measurements, some aftermarket ones are marked in metric measurements. Take a wire brush to the piston face to clean off the carbon, it should be marked if it is oversized. Just looking at the piston and bore is not a very good way to determine the health of the engine...when my came apart, the piston and bore looked clean as a pin, no scarring, very clean. I took it to the machine shop (still there, hopefully will get it back any time now), he measured the cylinder bore at numerous locations, my engine had a 20 over piston in it, the bore at places where less than 20 over and at others was several thousandths over 30 over bore. In my case, the only fix was to have a sleeve installed in it to get the bore back within spec.

Most everything I have read, if the rod was undersized they usually have a small hole drilled through the rod's center near the crank journal (where the "t" is located on your rod). You may be lucky and have a standard bore cylinder and crank, that way the machine work will be minimal in re doing the engine....sleeves are kind of expensive, going to almost double my machine shop charges! I ordered my rebuild parts from ebay, they were made by stens rotary, I got a complete overhaul gasket set, piston with rings, rod, spark plug, and points shipped to me for about $90.00...I have not got it put back together yet so I don't know how it will turn out, the machinist thought the parts looked good, I trust his judgement on this.

Thanks Jeff I will clean the top of the piston off tomorrow and see if it is marked in any way there. I hope it has not already been bored out. I did not see anything but there is a lot of carbon build up on it. No matter what, that piston is not going back in any engine of mine.

I once had a jeep cherokee with a loud engine. Everyone told me it was a rod knock so I tore the engine down, and found one of the pistons was "domed" or warped, allowing it to rock back and forth in the cylinder, you could move it around by hand in ways it should not move. I got lucky there and put a standard bore new piston in it, and a buddy of mine is still driving that heep today. I am wondering if this is not a similar thing. You can see the area below the rings was contacting the bore, it's clean in the one spot and blackened from age everywhere else.

I'd want to say that they ran it hot, but then the whole side of the piston should be marked up from skirting. Might have been dentonation or just been from the corosion/rust being pushed around when you disturbed it from its rest? As far as the engine goes, the cylinder and crank are hardened where as the piston and rod are not. So no suprise that the cylinder and crank look so good. You should not have any up or down play in the bearings. If it were me I'd replace them as you probably aren't gonna ever get any closer to replacing them any time soon...... especially if you plan on keeping/using the mower.
hope this helps,
Robert

I must be nearing the age where I need to get my eyes checked, there are numbers on it. 237406. I also noticed my digital caliper has measurements on it, for cases such as this when the battery is dead. :)

Piston measures approximately 88mm in diameter across the sides without damage. I am not able to pull anything up by those numbers, and the piston part number on parts tree does not match that number on the piston I have at all.


That is solid advice Robert thank you. I'm still deciding what to do but I am thinking there is no point hoping for a quick or cheap fix for this mill at this point. I've got it this far apart, may as well do it right if I want to run this for any length of time.

When I rebuilt my last kohler, I used stens parts that I bought from a guy on ebay. He is listed in ohio. Was very satisfied with the quality! As far as the bearing go, I'd honestly go on ebay and buy a set from there. I can get you item numbers if you send me a pm. Do you own a hone by chance?
thanks,
robert

I think the stock measurement for the piston in standard measurements are 3 3/8" or 3.375", I don't know what that converts to in metric measurements.

I've always heard good things about the replacment parts from stens except for the rods. I've heard several complaints on them. Most people I know, use stens for everything but the rod. They use a kohler rod. I know I saw a pic a while ago where a stens rod broke and there was a big open cavity inside it which caused it to fail.

AJ

88 millimeters = 3.46456693 inches

I forgot to post the pic of the piston when it was still in the engine that I had taken with my phone. I ran in and got the good camera for the piston pics so you guys could see some detail of the damage.

http://i.imgur.com/3ILly.jpg

I'm not even sure what to make of it at this point.

Cut the yard with the '78 today. It ran excellent today I was very proud of it when I switched it off and put it away after another cut. For a tired 33 year old tractor it did not complain or skip a beat.

http://i.imgur.com/PTfqo.jpg

That's pretty bad. I wonder if it could be sleeved and saved? All else failsmake a post int he wanted section of the site or contact our site sponsers. It should be easy to find anotehr block if it comes to that. I would also have the crank checked as well.

why couldn't he just have it machined out another ten thou? There should be plenty of material there to make it twenty thousandths over bore. (if what has been posted so far, it's already ten over). If you have any friends with a good hone, you could take it out that much.....

Ebay item # 120713702058 82.00+9.99 shipping

+

Ebay item # 380335803272 40+7 shipping

= 129.99 for the parts to completely rebuild your cub cadet (minus carb).

It might cost you 50 bucks to get the block machined.

If you are mechanically inclined at all you can read the service manual and rebuild it..... and if you have questions I'd be happy to try and answer them. Too bad you're not closer, I'd get your block overbored for you....
thanks,
Robert

Thanks Robert. If I go that route it will be a bit yet, money will be tight for the next couple weeks due to bills and other responsibilities but I would like to save what I have VS just getting another unknown engine.

A repower is also still in the back of my mind too. :bigthink:

I've got a key on my keyring to my buddy's fab/weld shop. They have a lot of older machines too, lathes, giant radial drills, mills etc. I am sure there is something over there I could use to bore this thing out, problem being I don't know what I am doing. :)

I am going to ask the machinist there what he thinks of their capability to machine this for me. He is a no BS kind of guy, if he is not 100% he can do it, he won't touch it. In the mean time, I'll just make sure not to run the 78 low on oil and keep the grass cut. I'm going to start rebuilding my cub fund and talk with my friend about the machining and go from there.

Mark,

Unless your buddy is running a full blown machine shop, made for rebuilding engines, I am sure he will not be able to get the machining done....there are machines special made for this purpose, better left to those that do it for a living. As I stated before, check ebay, search kohler engine kits, that is were I found the kit I ordered for less than $95.00 shipped to me, included everything except for valves and governor parts. The cost to have you engine bored, crank turned, and have everything cleaned in a hot tank will vary by location....I believe my machinists quoted me around $100.00 to do these things, I had to have my blocked sleeved, I believe that is going to cost me nearly $150.00 extra.

That is pretty much what I was expecting the machinist there to say too Jeff, plus maybe a good laugh from him haha. I've seen them do a lot of very cool things, but nothing engine related. At any rate, in the grand scheme of things if I can get it professionally machined and get the rebuild kit all for the 2-300 dollar range I may as well save and do that. I appreciate all the input guys, this forum rocks. :beerchug:

I went out to measure the crank just to see what it was and it appears to be stock diameter from my measurements, 1.5". At least I will be able to use that if it needs to be machined.

I think the bearings in this engine are worn, I can get an ever so slight bit of play from them, at least it feels like it. I also notice some odd feelings in spots if I spin the flywheel so I will definitely be getting brand new bearings too.

any good machinest could bore that block on a bridge port with out thinking twice.

Or....Like I said awhile ago, if you have someone with a hone and know's what they're doing, then you could easily hone it out to the needed bore for twenty over.
thanks,
robert