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View Poll Results: What should I do about seals with the M18?
Inspect and replace if necessary 4 10.81%
Replace while the engine is out and they are accessible 11 29.73%
Just replace the flywheel one since it’s hardest to get at 2 5.41%
Leave them alone if they aren’t obviously leaking 11 29.73%
Bin the M18 and do a Hemi swap instead 9 24.32%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:42 AM
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john hall john hall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bedell View Post
WRONG.... the 682/782 came with the KT-17 Series I (Spec No 24193) up to serial number 726124. At serial number 726125 and above, they came with the Series II (Spec No 24302), regardless of color.
Learned something! I didn't realize ANY Cadets came with Series II engines. However going by your info, all IH machines should have Series I, correct?
This seems to be as unusual as a yellow 982 or an Onan equipped 2072 (not to derail, just making a statement).

To the OP, if you are going to proceed with the rebuild, take the block to be checked for cracks before wasting time. If that is good, then ask about the crank. Maybe the machine shop can clean the crank better and guarantee no aluminum residue. But if in doubt, bite the bullet and grind it for insurance. We can discuss machine shop prices all day, how bad is the price on a set of rods? I know you can get aftermarket pistons for Magnums, don't know if they interchange with a KT.
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  #22  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:57 AM
R Bedell R Bedell is offline
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Quote:
However going by your info, all IH machines should have Series I, correct?
IH machines were up to serial number 699,999. Thus, yes....

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  #23  
Old 12-31-2017, 09:53 AM
Gompers Gompers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mech View Post
Original-ish......

That's a replacement engine you know. 682 never came with a KT II. Especially not a red one.

If you want to know if it's really a crack, magna flux it.


Grind the crank.....no, really. Don't mess with it. Don't clean it.... just take it to a shop before you convince yourself it's fine and doesn't need it.
So you’re telling me to grind the crank?

Since it’s aluminum, I didn’t know if the usual Magnaflux would work or if there’s some other way to tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bedell View Post
WRONG.... the 682/782 came with the KT-17 Series I (Spec No 24193) up to serial number 726124. At serial number 726125 and above, they came with the Series II (Spec No 24302), regardless of color.
I’m sure that there were quite a few Series II warranty replacement engines put in by IH/Cub dealers, so it’s entirely possible to have a Red IH 6/782 with a series II that was basically “stock”. I’m guessing that’s the story on my other 782. It’s the only other engine I’m aware of that’s literally a drop in replacement as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john hall View Post
Learned something! I didn't realize ANY Cadets came with Series II engines. However going by your info, all IH machines should have Series I, correct?
This seems to be as unusual as a yellow 982 or an Onan equipped 2072 (not to derail, just making a statement).

To the OP, if you are going to proceed with the rebuild, take the block to be checked for cracks before wasting time. If that is good, then ask about the crank. Maybe the machine shop can clean the crank better and guarantee no aluminum residue. But if in doubt, bite the bullet and grind it for insurance. We can discuss machine shop prices all day, how bad is the price on a set of rods? I know you can get aftermarket pistons for Magnums, don't know if they interchange with a KT.
Not to go too far off the rails, but the 982 comment jogged a bit of curiosity about why IH went with the Onan in the 982 instead of the KT19. Deere went onan in the 318 after their experience with the kt17 in the 317, but those two weren’t made at the same time. It would have seemed easier(ish) and in keeping with previous IH precident to just put a bigger engine of the same series in the bigger tractor (i.e K241->K301->K321->K341), but IH didn’t. The whole engine strategy seemed to change with the 82 series at introduction (Briggs twin in the 582 as well), well before they would have been aware of issues with the KT17.

I don’t have production numbers for the 6/782, but the series II came out in 83, I believe, and I think the 6/782 was made for at least a couple years after that (certainly until the end of IH Ag in 84), so I’m sure there are more than a few Red MTD factory series II 6/782s running around out there.

I’m curious about piston interchange as well. They are, from my understanding, pretty much identical engines aside from the ignition and quite a few parts seem to cross (or at least fit) between a m18 and a kt17 II.

Rods are ~50 each and are plenty available. Rebuild kits sans pistons (but with rods) can be found with everything for a little over 200 on epay. The pistons don’t look awful but have been in that engine, which obviously had some
issues, and are right at the minimum spec for thrust face wear. I’m not dumping 300 bucks in pistons into this thing, though, if there’s any way to avoid it.

Probably just take the crank in to be ground next week and see from there!

Again, thanks for all the help folks!
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  #24  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:23 AM
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ol'George ol'George is offline
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Look at the block up close in the area perceived to be a "crack"
Blocks are die cast aluminum,------ where as the molten aluminum is injected into the die under pressure.
As the aluminum is cooled the die halves part, and the part is removed.
The dies make thousands of parts, and they wear and crack, and are very expensive if they need repaired or replaced, ( thousands of dollars) depending on die size.
So they use them as long as they can get a usable/machinable part.
If you are seeing a crack in the crankcase half, it will be a crack going into the block.
If you are seeing a crack in the die that made the part, the questioned "crack" will protrude or be just a witness mark of the cracked die that made the part.
look close, it should be apparent what you have.
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  #25  
Old 12-31-2017, 01:19 PM
J-Mech J-Mech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bedell View Post
WRONG.... the 682/782 came with the KT-17 Series I (Spec No 24193) up to serial number 726124. At serial number 726125 and above, they came with the Series II (Spec No 24302), regardless of color.
Oh, I'm sorry. I'll go ad "IH" to my statement then to make it true. No IH BUILT 682 rolled out of the factory with a KT Series II. It is an IH tractor as stated in the first post.....or at least he says it is.

When I said red, I was referring to the engine, not the tractor. No CC had a RED Kohler installed at the factory. They were all black. Replacements could be red.
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  #26  
Old 12-31-2017, 01:39 PM
J-Mech J-Mech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
Since it’s aluminum, I didn’t know if the usual Magnaflux would work or if there’s some other way to tell.
I know. That's why I suggested it. I didn't ask if you knew whether it would work, I stated to magnaflux it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
I’m sure that there were quite a few Series II warranty replacement engines put in by IH/Cub dealers, so it’s entirely possible to have a Red IH 6/782 with a series II that was basically “stock”. I’m guessing that’s the story on my other 782. It’s the only other engine I’m aware of that’s literally a drop in replacement as well.
True....
As a note, they later sold the M18 as a replacement. I suppose by your standards, it isn't "drop in" though, as the wiring had to be modified to accommodate the magneto ignition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
Not to go too far off the rails, but the 982 comment jogged a bit of curiosity about why IH went with the Onan in the 982 instead of the KT19. Deere went onan in the 318 after their experience with the kt17 in the 317, but those two weren’t made at the same time. It would have seemed easier(ish) and in keeping with previous IH precident to just put a bigger engine of the same series in the bigger tractor (i.e K241->K301->K321->K341), but IH didn’t. The whole engine strategy seemed to change with the 82 series at introduction (Briggs twin in the 582 as well), well before they would have been aware of issues with the KT17.
IH used the B&S engine to keep cost down. Otherwise, the price of all the tractors would have been about the same.
If they had kept with the Kohler theme, then the 982 should have gotten the K582. I read somewhere why IH went with Onan, but I can't find that info now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
I’m curious about piston interchange as well. They are, from my understanding, pretty much identical engines aside from the ignition and quite a few parts seem to cross (or at least fit) between a m18 and a kt17 II.
All I can tell you is they carry different part numbers. The bore and stroke of the engines is the same. I never took two and compared them.
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  #27  
Old 12-31-2017, 03:45 PM
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ol'George ol'George is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
So you’re telling me to grind the crank?

Since it’s aluminum, I didn’t know if the usual Magnaflux would work or if there’s some other way to tell.



I’m sure that there were quite a few Series II warranty replacement engines put in by IH/Cub dealers, so it’s entirely possible to have a Red IH 6/782 with a series II that was basically “stock”. I’m guessing that’s the story on my other 782. It’s the only other engine I’m aware of that’s literally a drop in replacement as well.



Not to go too far off the rails, but the 982 comment jogged a bit of curiosity about why IH went with the Onan in the 982 instead of the KT19. Deere went onan in the 318 after their experience with the kt17 in the 317, but those two weren’t made at the same time. It would have seemed easier(ish) and in keeping with previous IH precident to just put a bigger engine of the same series in the bigger tractor (i.e K241->K301->K321->K341), but IH didn’t. The whole engine strategy seemed to change with the 82 series at introduction (Briggs twin in the 582 as well), well before they would have been aware of issues with the KT17.

I don’t have production numbers for the 6/782, but the series II came out in 83, I believe, and I think the 6/782 was made for at least a couple years after that (certainly until the end of IH Ag in 84), so I’m sure there are more than a few Red MTD factory series II 6/782s running around out there.

I’m curious about piston interchange as well. They are, from my understanding, pretty much identical engines aside from the ignition and quite a few parts seem to cross (or at least fit) between a m18 and a kt17 II.

Rods are ~50 each and are plenty available. Rebuild kits sans pistons (but with rods) can be found with everything for a little over 200 on epay. The pistons don’t look awful but have been in that engine, which obviously had some
issues, and are right at the minimum spec for thrust face wear. I’m not dumping 300 bucks in pistons into this thing, though, if there’s any way to avoid it.

Probably just take the crank in to be ground next week and see from there!

Again, thanks for all the help folks!
Concerning the pistons:
The Magnums had FORGED pistons made by Mahle, they are stout.
IIRR (Foggy memory) the early series 2 did not have Mahle pistons and remembering the rod width was different @ the pin area for the Mahle.
post a pix of pin side/ area of your piston and we will tell you if it is a mahle piston.
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  #28  
Old 12-31-2017, 04:01 PM
Gompers Gompers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ol'George View Post
Concerning the pistons:
The Magnums had FORGED pistons made by Mahle, they are stout.
IIRR (Foggy memory) the early series 2 did not have Mahle pistons and remembering the rod width was different @ the pin area for the Mahle.
post a pix of pin side/ area of your piston and we will tell you if it is a mahle piston.
I’ll have to get some pics tomorrow. At family today (visiting my 127 and other 782 ).

I’m going to need new rods anyway, so the question becomes can I use M18 rods and pistons with my (freshly reground) KT 17 crank?
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  #29  
Old 12-31-2017, 04:45 PM
Gompers Gompers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mech View Post
I know. That's why I suggested it. I didn't ask if you knew whether it would work, I stated to magnaflux it.




True....
As a note, they later sold the M18 as a replacement. I suppose by your standards, it isn't "drop in" though, as the wiring had to be modified to accommodate the magneto ignition.




IH used the B&S engine to keep cost down. Otherwise, the price of all the tractors would have been about the same.
If they had kept with the Kohler theme, then the 982 should have gotten the K582. I read somewhere why IH went with Onan, but I can't find that info now.




All I can tell you is they carry different part numbers. The bore and stroke of the engines is the same. I never took two and compared them.
Just want to say thank you, Jon, for your input and knowlege. You’re kinda blunt sometimes, but it comes from a good place

I wouldn’t mind dropping in an M18 if I could find a good one, but I don’t think it’s really that huge of an upgrade from a good KT17II. It’s not a huge wiring mod to add a NC relay and potentially the oil light.

Anyway, I recall seeing a sales guide for dealers that was talking about how to compare the quiet lines to the 82 series, and I can’t exactly remember what they compared the 482 and 582 to, but it seems like it would have been a decent step up from the 1200 or the 1000 horsepower-wise. To confused matters more, MTD came along with the 1282 is basically what a 1250 with manual lift would have been with 82 series tin. And then there’s the 782D/1512/882.

It just seems like they really changed up 20+ years of a pretty simple lineup with just one series of engine from one manufacturer to branch out to three different manufacturers for the garden tractor line, though I suppose the SGT didn’t really exist in the lineup before.
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  #30  
Old 12-31-2017, 05:08 PM
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ol'George ol'George is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
Just want to say thank you, Jon, for your input and knowlege. You’re kinda blunt sometimes, but it comes from a good place

I wouldn’t mind dropping in an M18 if I could find a good one, but I don’t think it’s really that huge of an upgrade from a good KT17II. It’s not a huge wiring mod to add a NC relay and potentially the oil light.

Anyway, I recall seeing a sales guide for dealers that was talking about how to compare the quiet lines to the 82 series, and I can’t exactly remember what they compared the 482 and 582 to, but it seems like it would have been a decent step up from the 1200 or the 1000 horsepower-wise. To confused matters more, MTD came along with the 1282 is basically what a 1250 with manual lift would have been with 82 series tin. And then there’s the 782D/1512/882.

It just seems like they really changed up 20+ years of a pretty simple lineup with just one series of engine from one manufacturer to branch out to three different manufacturers for the garden tractor line, though I suppose the SGT didn’t really exist in the lineup before.
To answer your piston/rod ? yes rod/piston from m-18 will work.
The pix of your crank is positioned so I can't see the cross drilled rod oiling holes,are there there?
Just checking that some PO didn't slip in a series 1 crank.
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