E10 fuel problems

[squatch]

I have been reading about some of the problems people have been having with E10 fuel lately because I had some myself. This is about my boat but it still applys to small engines and our cars and trucks. Hope it helps somebody out. It is a cut and paste form a cut and paste from another site so please parden the duplications. It's kinda long.

""""I left about 12 gallons of fuel in my 17.5 gallon tank from late fall till early spring this year. Normally not a huge problem until the dreaded E10.
I always start the boat in the drive before taking it out. Did so started great. Was going to take a bud out on the Susky flats a few weeks ago and boat would not start at the ramp. Started ok when I got home. Thought the carbs or fuel pump might be problem but somebody at work told me about a very expensive problem with his motorcycle so I did alot of reading on the web and learned a few things. Some of which I've verified this last week in person.

E10 has a shelf life of 30 days without stabilizers.

Regular old style stabilizers don't work they are mainly (suprise) alcohol.

You need a new style fuel stabilizer that's made for E10. Then you may get 90 days if your lucky.

The ethanol in E10 will aborb water from the atmosphere if the vent is open and humidity is high. When the alcohol has absorbed all the water it can hold it will seperate from the fuel in layers. This leaves a bottom layer of ethanol and water and a top layer of low octane gasoline. Neither of which your engine wants to run on. This is called Phase Seperation.

Water in the fuel can be especially damaging to 2 stroke engines. The alcohol cleans the oil off of the places you want lubricated and the water sticks to these clean surfaces and can cause pits and rust, things like bearings and cylinder walls.

Starbrite and others makes a stabilizer that is recommended on several marine sites.
http://www.starbrite.com/sproductdetail.cfm?ID=1537

There is a product that claims it makes phase seperated fuel go back together and become usable. It seemed to work for me.
http://yhst-37334516642247.stores.ya.../mdreware.html

There are a few companies that make kits to test for the amount of water, ethanol or both in fuel. I bought and used one from this place.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/

The alcohol is added locally at the tank farm as the truck is being loaded. this is because of the short shelf life of E10. It also means that the amounts are not always accurate. may be 10% may be more or less. If it is mcuh more you can have all kinds of serious problems with your fuel system.

There is no independant testing of the fuel for mixture % and water. It's up to the distributor.

The fuel pump may or may not tell you that there is E10 in the pump. Most states don't require it.

Below is cut and pasted from a write up I did on another forum desrcibing my experience. sorry about any double info.
I don't represent or have any interest in these products other than using them recently.
I hope this helps someone else from having problems or spending money on repairs.

"I posted above about my boat starting and rough running problems. I thought it was related to ethanol and water seperation. It was!

Last time I took the boat out it was real hard to start which is not normal for this boat. It also ran rough. I did some web reading and learned alot about the problems of E10 gasoline and water seperation. so I ordered the E-zorb and startron stabilizer above and an E10 fuel test kit from this place.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/

In the meantime I borrowed a small 6 gallon outboard fuel tank and filled it with clean new 50:1 mix for my outboard. My boat has a 17.5 gallon tank.
Before I took the boat out this weekend I started it in the drive and then disconnected the line from the tank(quick disconnect) and ran it till it stalled. I figured this would burn up all the bad gas in the carbs and fuel line. I then hooked it up to the temp 6gal tank with good fuel. It started right up. I wanted to make sure I didn't have problems at the boat ramp again.

In the meantime the E-zorb and fuel stabilizer came in. So I added both to the tank of suspected bad gas. E-zorb claims it will make "Phase Seperated Gas" usable again. Phase seperation occurs when the ethanol in the fuel aborbs all the water it can hold and seperates from the fuel. Water and alcohol on the bottom low octane gas on top. Motors don't want to run on either.

I went out on the river yesterday and started the boat and ran on the NEW tank for a while. It ran much better! Once I figured everything was good I switched back to the OLD tank that I had added the chemicals to. The boat now ran fine on this but it did smoke a bit on startup. I suspect that was steam! I ran most of the old bad gas out of tank and it ran fine. I hooked up the new tank shortly before leaving the water to make sure I had good gas in the fuel line and carbs.

When I got home yesterday the fuel test kit had arrived. Today I tested the OLD fuel and big suprise it had seperated. Also this E10 was only about 6% ethanol and water! I tested the NEW gas and found that there was a very small amount of water in it as well.

It seems the E-zorb worked enough to make the Bad gas usable.

The fuel test kit is bit pricey for what is included but you need the kit to find out how much % of alcohol is in the fuel. It works like 90turbo1 test above but you add a test solution to the mix to dye the fuel. Seperation is easy to see as the different components(fuel, water, alcohol) turn different colors of blue. If you just want to check for water in the fuel you just need the dye solution and a small glass container with a lid. I think this kit is a good thing to have around. I will now add the e10 stabilizer and E-zorb to every tank and can of gas i have. And I will not keep fuel longer than 90 days anymore. The problems just aren't worth it. E10 only has a shelf life of about 30 days untreated. And as I have found out it may have more or less than 10% ethanol and some water already in it at the pump!"

I also installed a water seperating fuel filter on my boat today!"""""

[greg r]

I hear ya on the E10, and it's crap as far as I'm concerned. It's mandated here in Oregon, and it's also required to be posted at the pump.
I play with old iron a lot, trucks, Scouts, and now the Cub. A friend of mine just south of me has a cottage business of fixing up old carburetors for guys like us. The stories he can tell about E10 and what it does to carbs and the carb soft parts like gaskets and such; plus it makes white krusties in the float or fuel bowl.
So far the best stuff I've found for fuel stabilizer is StaBil. I get the marine grade because it goes farther and I treat all fuel that goes into old stuff with carburetors. It's only been since last Feburary, but no problems so far.
For 2 cycle mixes, I get "clear gas". I get it at the place the racers get their race fuel. They also still sell the leaded gas too. Clear gas is the old formula fuel, not the RFG we all now get at the pump. It holds well, and does well with the mix. I just make sure the octane ain't over 92. All the power equipment does real well with it. It's spendy, like around $6/gal. Our local saw shop tells all his logger customers to use Premium for their chain saws. I don't know about that one, it's supposed to have alcohol now too.

Try the marine grade StaBil, and keep the fuel fresh.

[Merk]

Any gas has a 30 day shelf life.

I don't have any problems with gas that contains ethanol. Odds are the boat motor manufacture recomends that you drain the fuel system or add a fuel stablizer when you staore the boat motor. It sounds like you didn't do neither

I add a fuel stablizer to my fuel every time I fill my storage tanks for my small motors. I use regular Sta-Bil in my 2 and 4 cycle motors. Any gas ( 2 and 4 cycle ) that is over 30 days old is added to my Suburban's fuel tank.

I will run gas with 20% ethanol in my 149 with no problems. Been doing that for the last 4 years.

Best thing you can do to your fuel for your small motors is add a fuel stablizer and keep it fresh.

[squatch]

I had old style stabil in the fuel. After much reading last week I found that the old stuff is not made for E10. Stabil now make a different formula for E-10. The one listed above is a recommendation from a marine site where they tested the different stabilizers. It was not the best in the test just the best for the money. Of course the new stabilizers are more expensive than the old. The E-zorb seemed to work as the boat was a nightmare to start and would cough and sputter while running before even when I added fresh fuel to the tank. After I added that stuff it ran ok. I tested after the fact and the fuel had a 6% mix of alcohol and water. The E-zorb must have put it back in solution enough to run because it was the same tank that gave me so much trouble the week before.

[Merk]

by squatch
I had old style stabil in the fuel. After much reading last week I found that the old stuff is not made for E10.

Regular old style stabilizers don't work they are mainly (suprise) alcohol.

I suggest you check out question #5 in Sta-Bil faqs:
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/faq.aspx#stabil

Notice this question is under the Red Sta-Bil faqs. I have been using the orginal Sta-Bil for 7 to 8 years with no fuel related problems.

Check out the fuel related questions #8 and #9 in Kohler's faq section:
http://www.kohlerengines.com/maintenance/faqs.htm

Starbrite is a additive and a fuel stablizer according to the link that was posted by squatch. Part of the responce in Kohler's faq #12 says Kohler does not recommend using additives or cleaners in the oil or fuel system. The starbrite may be good for marine...not good for Kohler motors in Cub Cadets.

Briggs and Stratton have a good info in their faq section:
http://faqs.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faq...i=&p_topview=1

http://faqs.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faq...hfdGV4dD1mdWVs

You don't need to waste your money on race level gas (clear gas) for you 2 or 4 cycle motors. Leaded gas will leave deposits. I run 89 octane fuel in my Stihl, Lawn Boy and Echo 2 cycle motors. The owner's manuals for my Stihl and Echo motors says to run a mininum of 90 octane gas. Stale gas (before ethanol) will eat gaskets, carb parts and fuel lines.

It is too easy to blame a new product that big oil doesn't want replacing their fuel. I like tha have 1/10 of the money big oil spent putting ethanol down.

The fuel tester kit is another rip off that is being sold. If you do the following you won't need to waste your money on a fuel tester kit.

1. Go to a 30 day gas rule
2. Buy enough gas to last you only 30 days
3. Use a fuel stablizer every time you fill your fuel containers. Two goo fuel stablizers are Sta-Bil and the Briggs and Stratton sells.
4. Use a fuel container that you can seal
5. Buy you fuel from a name brand fuel station. The cheap gas is a name brand rejects.
6. Find a fuel that has the least amount of additives in their fuel. BP/Sterling has the most and Marathon has the least in my area. The additives is what plugs the fuel injectors and carb jets.
7. I shake my fuel containers before I fill the tanks on my small motors. This is a must for 2 cycle motors.
8. I do not leave my fuel containers on the cement-shop floor. My shop floor stays around 55 to 60 degrees. Cold floor and warm temps are a good way to form condensation.

[RPalmer]

I haven't run across E10 although I probably could find some. I also run 89 octane. The next highest in my area is 93 although I know a Sunoco that has 92. Anyway I thought that the ethanol blends were low octane. Like 87 and below. Merk, I'd give you stars for your post but I don't want to appear to have a brown nose. At my age a lot of that is common sense. But I see it needs to be said from time to time.

I also run W30 oil. And so should everyone else.

[Merk]

by RPalmer
Merk, I'd give you stars for your post but I don't want to appear to have a brown nose. At my age a lot of that is common sense. But I see it needs to be said from time to time.

Thanks Rpalmaer

I have way too many years working on all forms of motors. For the last 4 to 5 years I've been expermenting with different types of fuel with a strong emphasis on alcohol in the fuel. I'm trying to find the best bang for the buck.

Like it or not ethanol in your fuel is here to stay in the near future. You can complain about it or do what I do.....find a way to make it work.

RPalmer,
More than likely you have ran E10 fuel in the past. The State of Ohio does not require the pumps to labeled with E10 on them if my memory is right.

[RPalmer]

Originally Posted by Merk

Thanks Rpalmaer

For the last 4 to 5 years I've been expermenting with different types of fuel with a strong emphasis on alcohol in the fuel. I'm trying to find the best bang for the buck.

RPalmer,
More than likely you have ran E10 fuel in the past. The State of Ohio does not require the pumps to labeled with E10 on them if my memory is right.

My instructor for alternate fuels was exactly like the character Hank Hill. Propane was it in his book. And at the very least a bi-fuel mix of gas or diesel with propane. It never cough on but it is and incredibly clean burn. Everyone knows you can run a propane forklift indoors. But what many don't know is that you can extend oil changes considerably ( I don't remember it was 24 years ago) your exhaust rarely wears out and internal engine wear and tear is non existent. No I'm not a convert. Just recalling the benefits of this clean although low btu fuel.

Good luck with your experiments. God knows we need all the help we can muster for the next generation.

I find NO COMFORT in knowing that I could unknowingly be buying ethanol.

[greg r]

Merk, You the Man!
Thanks for your input and the time of posting the related links.
My fuel containers have always been on shelves or wood between them and the floor, didn't really consider the condensation though.
I DO NOT use race gas, or leaded at that. I just make sure the octane is sufficient, and I'm not sure yet about E10 and mixes for "older" equipment.
However, I do not regularly "cycle" my fuel either. Many times it can be stored for over 6 months. I admit it's not the right thing to do, but I've had no failures. The chainsaw has had the same carb, and never been overhauled or serviced since '84; just the usual owner maintenance as spelled out in the book. It cuts a lot of wood for winter every year, plus the orchard chores. Maybe it's because I use the "guud" oil, or the best fuel that applies, maybe I'm already doing some of your advice.
I've conceded to E10, and aware that mfg'rs have adjusted for it.
I'm still leary of E10 and older 2 cycles though, the '45 Rototiller is still go'in strong because of good fuel and the right oil.

[squatch]

Let me clarify a few things. I forgot there are alot of midwesterners and ect on here where it's been around and is an option. Here on the east coast we have no choice. We have to have oxygenated fuel by law. Mtbe was fouling water wells because of leaking tanks so it was outlawed in many states here and replaced with ethanol. My original post was informational and my personal observations. We have been runnming this stuff for a couple of years here and when the amount of ethanol is up it is noticable in fuel milage. My Civic gets 40mpg on gas about 35-36 on e10. One of my points was that this stuff is mixed locally and quantities in the gas vary widely. I have read that for the distributors the ethanol is cheaper than the gas so many are upping the amount in the fuel to make a buck. This has caused alot of problems in even new cars. Lot's of mechanics are reporting fuel pump failures on new cars and are just now putting 2+2 together and realizing that these are E10 related. Probably due to excessive ethanol in the fuel. I have had no problems so far in the cars where the gas is turned over regularly. But lots of starting issues with small engines this year even with fresh gas. I had not intended to leave fuel in my boat all winter I had intended to fish over the winter but the cold weather came on hard and fast this year. I know several boat owners like myself that got caught with their pants down and never got their motors winterized. Most years and with straight gas that probably wouldn't have been a problem. This spring I learned some lessons.
One of the most interesting things I learned was after testing several different cans and tanks around my place with the test kit I found differing amounts of ethanol/water 2 tanks were just bought form the same place(name brand busy stations) last week on different days. One hardly had any ethanol one had 12-13%. That one has much more potential to absorb water. That water is the #1 problem with E10. That's what causes pitting in old carbs and keeps engines from starting.
I personally like the idea of American made ethanol. 10% less of my money going overseas is a good thing. I also think we should be making this stuff from crop wastes and garbage not crops. Heck you can make moonshine from grass clippings! I wouldn't want to drink it but I'll run my car on it. Right now is learning curve time. A lot of people are getting ripped off for repairs when the only problem is water fouled gas in the tank. I hoped to make people aware of some of the probs. Maybe save somebody a service trip. A friend with a new motorcycle just spent $1k to get it repaired after some fuel systems parts disolved and went into the injectors ect. I wonder how much ethanol was in that tank of gas!
For the record I usually use stabil in my fuel unless I intend to go through it quickly. I don't like it in the winter in my old tractor(pre cub for me) though because when plowing snow the exhaust gets blown back at me and that stuff makes the exhaust acrid on the nose!
The fuel test kit is over priced but was worth it for me just for the education i got testing several cans and tanks I got.
Just so you know this is sort of a generic reply as I felt this info was good to post on a couple of different gearhead sites I belong to. Some of the same isuues have come up some different and I type real slow so I cut and paste from one forum to the other.