How do I set the points gap correctly without a timing light?

[three4rd]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

Proper timing is important. Just gapping the points isn't accurate. I'm not going to try and convince you why you need to do it right. I'm a mechanic, you're not. I can't make you do it. But, if you don't follow advice after seeking it, I can promise you, I (at least) will find other threads to follow.

No.... you don't need to use the flywheel to time an engine. The marks are just decorative.

OK already...no need to 'rub it in' with the 'banging head against the wall' emoticon! All I was trying to point out is that I did not use any marks to set it 6 years ago - I strictly went by how far out the bar was at the points. So, as I also said, I must have got lucky and most likely where I set it was also at the proper mark on the flywheel. It'll be interesting to see how the bar position corresponds to the marks. I appreciate all your help!

[J-Mech]

Gapping the points to .020" gets you close. It will run there. But it will likely start and run with a gap between. 016" and .024"...... Doesn't mean it's timed right.

[three4rd]

You might toast me for this, but, I believe I am correct in saying that if the points are open, there is no way the flywheel can be in the wrong position, i.e. 180 degrees off. So, really there is no need to locate the T and S marks, which I did, and it obviously corresponds to the points being open. Turns out that the white paint mark I found is the exact place where the points are open at their widest. So I don't see why there's even a need to put a paint mark on the wheel. If the bar has the points pushed open all the way, then you're good to go.As to the .020 gap, "close" is good enough for me. If YOU looked around my tractor, I guarantee you'd find a whole bunch of stuff what would not be up to your standards. If it runs well and cuts grass and plows snow, I'm good with it.

[ol'George]

We have all told you the correct way to do it.
If you choose to ignore our many, many, years combined experience, so be it.
I even "splained it to you lucy" via pm Ha,LOL!
I sincerely wish you the best.

[Merk]

I've been working on small engines for 45 plus years. I've learn a few things over the years.....with one being there is more than 1 way to time an engine.

What do you do when the frame is covered by the site hole??? My 149 is that way. Do we pull the engine to set the timing or do we bring the points arm/plunger to it max out reach and use a feeler gage???

I have had better success by bringing the points plunger/points arm to it's max and set the gap using a feeler gage. I've seem engines with a partial sheared keyway. Try timing that using a light.

All my small engines are time by bringing the points plunger/points arm to it's max and set the gap using a feeler gage.

[three4rd]

Originally Posted by Merk

I've been working on small engines for 45 plus years. I've learn a few things over the years.....with one being there is more than 1 way to time an engine.

What do you do when the frame is covered by the site hole??? My 149 is that way. Do we pull the engine to set the timing or do we bring the points arm/plunger to it max out reach and use a feeler gage???

I have had better success by bringing the points plunger/points arm to it's max and set the gap using a feeler gage. I've seem engines with a partial sheared keyway. Try timing that using a light.

All my small engines are time by bringing the points plunger/points arm to it's max and set the gap using a feeler gage.

I have such limited experience with all this, but I see what you're saying and have to agree. It boils down to this: is it possible for the points to be in the open position (ergo the plunger out all the way) AND for the flywheel to be in any other than the correct position - that of immediately before the compression stroke? If the answer is yes, then I can see where you need to rely on the flywheel marks to make absolutely sure. But if the answer is no, then I don't see the need to pay attention to where the wheel is. I checked with my IH dealer, who also professionally has rebuilt and repaired hundreds of engines - has been around this stuff since he was a kid and his dad ran the business. He said it's not necessary to do anything with the flywheel marks. You can't change the position of the plunger. It is what it is. I spun the engine around several times and every time the points were open it was right near the wheel marks.

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by three4rd

It boils down to this: is it possible for the points to be in the open position (ergo the plunger out all the way) AND for the flywheel to be in any other than the correct position - that of immediately before the compression stroke?

The answer is YES. It doesn't matter how far the points open. It matters WHEN they open. The "S" mark on the flywheel denotes a certain number of degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Lets say that number is 12 deg. When you use a feeler gauge, you may be setting it to 15 deg, or 8 deg, or even 18 deg. You don't know. You don't know because the point plunger, camshaft lobe, cam gears ect are somewhat wore from years of use. I'm not interested in debating it. We've debated it here time and time again. I'm just interested in making sure that people know and understand what setting timing means, and how to properly do it. As far as Dale's (Merk) position.... that's fine. He is very experienced in not only Kohler engines, but many other engines. To be honest, I've set them by ear several times because I didn't want to take the time to get to the cover (like Dale stated) or because I was doing something different with the engine and standard timing didn't work. BUT... when teaching someone something new, the proper way is the only way to teach it.

[Alvy]

I will say that it absolutely makes a difference when you time one and then tune the fuel from there. Timing one properly alone has made every one I have start and run better. I don't have the weird turn over then stop turning over after hot stops and starts, that feels like an acr issue that so many people have, but really isn't etc.

OP you should do this and not debate it anymore. Guys with experience can do it other ways and also experiment to get more performance, etc, but on your end I think it's time to time, my good man

[Mike McKown]

I bought a 108 years ago. The engine would kick back on the starter/generator and you couldn't start it unless you had a hot battery. The engine ran rough as a cob. Shook, vibrated at lower speeds. I checked the points and they were at .020. Several years later it occurred to me the problem just might be fast timing. I never set it with a light but I cut the point gap down to about .014-.015 and the engine smoothed right out and started easily from that point on.

Lesson learned.

[Merk]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

The answer is YES. It doesn't matter how far the points open. It matters WHEN they open. The "S" mark on the flywheel denotes a certain number of degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Lets say that number is 12 deg. When you use a feeler gauge, you may be setting it to 15 deg, or 8 deg, or even 18 deg. You don't know. You don't know because the point plunger, camshaft lobe, cam gears ect are somewhat wore from years of use. I'm not interested in debating it. We've debated it here time and time again. I'm just interested in making sure that people know and understand what setting timing means, and how to properly do it. As far as Dale's (Merk) position.... that's fine. He is very experienced in not only Kohler engines, but many other engines. To be honest, I've set them by ear several times because I didn't want to take the time to get to the cover (like Dale stated) or because I was doing something different with the engine and standard timing didn't work. BUT... when teaching someone something new, the proper way is the only way to teach it.

Jonathan-Thanks for the complements

Finding the "S" means you need a clear view of the opening to the mark on the flywheel. You timing could be off a few degrees if you don't have a straight view to the mark.

I've had engines that had no marking on the flywheel and the opening on the flywheel housing is covered by something.

Don't own a timing light????? What do you do?????

How does everyone set the points on a fresh rebuild engine ???

After I set the points I will spin the engine a few revolutions and recheck the point gap. I will check and double check until I have the same gap 2 times in a row.

Most of my Kohlers have less than .020 point gap.

I'm not trying to make this a pissing match. The way I set the points is easier for me and a new owner that has never done this before (my $.02.)

Both ways are in a Kohler Service manual (pages 8.2 and 8.3). The way I set points is under the engines with a mag.

I've done it both ways......like the static timing way the best.

This statement worth repeating:

by Merk
I've learn a few things over the years.....with one being there is more than 1 way to time an engine.